1914 BEF Embarkation Ships

[Nick1914]

Dear All, just trying to collect together embarkation ships used by the various battalions in 1914 going to France. Found a combination of Westlake's "British Battalions....." and War Diaries pretty much fill the picture with a few exceptions.  Can anyone help with the following:

 

1)  2nd Inniskilling Fusiliers - Southampton to Havre - arrived 23 Aug 1914.  Early War Diary appears missing in National Records download

 

2) 2nd Middlesex - Southampton to Havre -  arrived 6th November 1914

 

3) 1st KRRC - Southampton - Rouen  - arrived 13th August 1914

 

Thanks in advance,  Nick

[stiletto_33853]

Hi Nick,

 

The 1st K.R.R.C. left Southampton on the S.S.Honorius.

 

Andy

 

[Nick1914]

Dear Stiletto, many thanks most helpful......just what I wanted.  I am also very interested in non-combat casualties during the BEF and saw a reference to Mr C H Wilkie getting appendicitis and evacuated back to England.  Just checked the Aug 1914 Army list and can't pick him up in the main list or recent commission Appendix.  Any ideas on him  forenames/rank etc?

 

PS is the above from a 1915 War Diary?

 

Best, Nick

[clk]

Hi Nick,

 

The war diary for the 2/Middlesex appears to read that they embarked on cattle boat C.P[?] Wetch.. [?] and sailed at 9.30am

 

Source: Ancestry.com.- war diaries collection

 

Regards

Chris

[Nick1914]

Dear Clk, well spotted.  I've looked up the C P? prefix on various maritime sites and can find nothing that corresponds.  Some years ago on the Forum a member based in Colorado had a big project looking at all the ships involved in the embarkation process. Difficult also to see what the name really is.

 

Thanks for all your efforts.,  Nick

[sotonmate]

Nick

 

CP normally relates to ships of Canadian Pacific fleet. I have looked at their fleet of the day and don't see anything of this name, there were several categories of vessel listed but no cattle boats. You might be able to get a name confirmation from a higher echelon war diary.viz.23 Infantry Brigade of 8 Division (WO95/1707/1 for Nov-Dec 1914).

I collaborated with "Colorado man" (member lostinspace) back in 2010/11 and we didn't go beyond the first 6 Divisions plus the Cavalry Division.

Edited 16 July , 2017 by sotonmate

[sotonmate]

Just looked in War Diary for 23 IB HQ for embarkation from Southampton in 1914. Most of the Brigade embarked on the Blue Funnel ship "Bellerophon", seemingly leaving 2 Middlesex to take another vessel ( as you know, the CP ?????) but there is no ref to it in the Bde Diary. From my previous dabblings it was a regular item for the Bde to record vessels taken by it's elements. 2 Devons appeared to be "in the same boat", so to speak, as they were moved from Hursley Park to the port just prior to the 2 Middx move, but in the end travelled with the "bigwigs", and in the process leaving behind a few of their four-legged friends.

Edited 16 July , 2017 by sotonmate

[sotonmate]

Now found it in the 8 Division's Adjutant's Diary (WO95/1680/1) "Welshman " !

[MBrockway]

23 hours ago, clk said:

Hi Nick,

 

The war diary for the 2/Middlesex appears to read that they embarked on cattle boat C.P[?] Wetch.. [?] and sailed at 9.30am

 

Source: Ancestry.com.- war diaries collection

 

Regards

Chris

Looks like "embarked at once on a cattle boat C.P. WELCHMAN sailed at 9.30 ..." to me.

[MBrockway]

Welshman was originally the Tauric.  Renamed Welshman in 1903.

 

Details here:

http://oceanlinersmagazine.com/2014/11/13/tauric-runs-aground/

 

 

 

[MBrockway]

On 15/07/2017 at 16:14, Nick1914 said:

Dear Stiletto, many thanks most helpful......just what I wanted.  I am also very interested in non-combat casualties during the BEF and saw a reference to Mr C H Wilkie getting appendicitis and evacuated back to England.  Just checked the Aug 1914 Army list and can't pick him up in the main list or recent commission Appendix.  Any ideas on him  forenames/rank etc?

 

PS is the above from a 1915 War Diary?

 

Best, Nick

"Mr" I think was used by officers for a senior NCO, so he won't be in the Army Lists.  Unsure of the exact usage in the KRRC in 1914, but likely to be at least CSM and higher.

 

Will see if I can find anything on him for you, but (perhaps not unsurprisingly) he is not listed in the Wounded in 1914 KRRC Chronicle.

 

[Edit: see David's Post #18 below where he points out that 'Mr' would only be used for Warrant Officers, which at this stage of the war meant the battalion Serjeant-Major, as the Schoolmaster and Bandmaster would typically not go with the battalion into theatre.  Colour Serjeants were not Warrant Officers until mid-war.

 

David also pointed out that 'Mr' was sometimes used for subalterns.

 

Further reading of the 1/KRRC war diary by myself also revealed a reference two pages further on to a "Mr Lloyd", which very clearly means 2/Lt H.C Lloyd - see Post #19]

Edited 17 July , 2017 by MBrockway

[sotonmate]

Nick

 

CORSICAN carried 2 Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers to Le Havre, along with 12 Infantry Brigade HQ plus 2 Essex Regt.

SATURNIA carried other elements of the Brigade to Boulogne ( 1 KORL and 2 LF)

(from my notes to lostinspace 2010 and taken from War Diary WO95/1501 - 12 Inf. Bde.HQ)

Edited 16 July , 2017 by sotonmate

[clk]

Hi,

 

I looked at it again this morning, and would agree. Whilst it seems to be written as 'Welchman', I got to thinking that it might be a ship actually called 'Welshman', but hadn't been able to follow it through further.

 

Regards

Chris

[MBrockway]

On 15/07/2017 at 16:14, Nick1914 said:

Dear Stiletto, many thanks most helpful......just what I wanted.  I am also very interested in non-combat casualties during the BEF and saw a reference to Mr C H Wilkie getting appendicitis and evacuated back to England.  Just checked the Aug 1914 Army list and can't pick him up in the main list or recent commission Appendix.  Any ideas on him  forenames/rank etc?

 

PS is the above from a 1915 War Diary?

 

Best, Nick

 

43 minutes ago, MBrockway said:

"Mr" I think was used by officers for a senior NCO, so he won't be in the Army Lists.  Unsure of the exact usage in the KRRC in 1914, but likely to be at least CSM and higher.

 

Will see if I can find anything on him for you, but (perhaps not unsurprisingly) he is not listed in the Wounded in 1914 KRRC Chronicle.

 

Drawn a blank on finding any 1/KRRC senior NCO called "Wilkie".

 

It looks like he never left the troopship and went back to Blighty without landing in theatre.  That's probably why he is not listed on the KRRC medal rolls.

 

No sign of him in the KRRC Boer War rolls either.  This is often a good source for the senior NCO's of the immediate pre-War period.

 

Mark

 

PS Andy's image above is from the 1/KRRC Aug 1914 war diary.

[Nick1914]

Dear Sotonmate, MBrockway & CLK, fantastic work. Bored already at 06=30 with Brexit on Radio 4 (and getting out of Europe) I opened the GWF to a most pleasant surprise........getting into Europe!

 

Many, many thanks for these most helpful findings.  I have also cross-correlated the SS Saturnia/Corsican data and these have validated things nicely. On my dbase I have all the officer casualties classified by ORBAT so just plug in the Brigade number and all the related units come up.  Not a perfect system as particularly during 1st Ypres alot of units moved around on a temporary basis but generally fine.

 

Having now almost all the British Infantry BEF transport I'm filling in gaps on Cavalry and Staff.  Looking at Divisional Adjutants War Diaries is clearly the way to go and for a few pounds a few PRO downloads will be a good investment.  Also working on embarkation into Marseilles by overseas regiments from India & Indian Army in October 1914.  A number of Regimental histories such as the Leicestershire's by Colonel H C Wylly are proving to be both fruitful and very interesting.  Field Ambulance records will also be interesting but may be complex as personnel and equipment may travel separately.  RA & RE a bit of a nightmare pulling together!

 

I would highly recommend this subject of Embarkation Ships to other members......not so well documented yet! This is really a side-issue to my overall goal of logging all 1914 officer casualties but provides an invaluable triangulation point on dates before which incidents could happen.  Another interesting angle is the number of "mobilisation casualties" I have noted and the numbers are starting to rise.

 

With regard to embarkation I have found a few idiosyncracies that are worth taking into account!  1) Sometimes billeting officers went out a couple of days ahead of the unit on another ship 2) similarly the odd CO went ahead on another ship carrying HQ/another regiment 3) Medical officers sometimes joined later when the pre-war establishment was not complete.

 

Finally MB thanks for the tips on Mr Wilkie makes alot of sense.

 

Have a great week everyone.....mine's started really well.  Nick

[tootrock]

Not sure if this helps but there was an Archibald Hanning Wilkie in the KRRC, and on his MIC it states, under "Disembarkation Returns", 13/8/14, which is the same date as Mr C.H.Wilkie disembarked and was then sent home with appendicitis.

Or is this just a coincidence?

 

Martin

[MBrockway]

Nick,

[Edit: subsequent discussion caused a reversal of my opinions in this post!  Read further down]

"Your" Wilkie is definitely NOT the 2/Lt Archibald Hanning WILKIE, 1/KRRC, who was the subject of the fishing expedition in this topic here:

Captain A. H. Wilkie 1st King's Royal Rifle Corps

 

The poster had earlier run another topic trying to garner info on a suitcase he had found, see here (pics unfortunately lost):

60th rifles Help

 

By an amazing coincidence this suitcase appeared on fleaBay shortly afterwards with great chunks of our research pasted verbatim into the description.  Ho hum

 

All this poster's other topics follow a similar vein fishing for free research to up-value future auction lots.

 

I have not found a Silver War Badge as yet for any C. H. Wilkie, KRRC, so my current hypothesis is he remained in the UK after his appendicitis and served in either the Rifle Depot or one of the Reserve battalions.  Very few records survive from these units and they did not keep war diaries.

 

On the assumption he was a long service Regular, I've been looking for him in the post War KRRC Chronicles - senior NCO's are often listed - but again, no luck so far.

 

tootrock posted as I was drafting this - Archibald Wilkie definitely did not go back to Blighty with appendicitis.  Definitely different man.

 

Cheers,

Mark

Edited 17 July , 2017 by MBrockway

[Muerrisch]

12 hours ago, MBrockway said:

"Mr" I think was used by officers for a senior NCO, so he won't be in the Army Lists.  Unsure of the exact usage in the KRRC in 1914, but likely to be at least CSM and higher.

 

Will see if I can find anything on him for you, but (perhaps not unsurprisingly) he is not listed in the Wounded in 1914 KRRC Chronicle.

 

In 1914 the only soldier likely to be referred to as "Mr" in a War Diary was the Sergeant-Major, who was the only Warrant Officer to embark [WO II had not been invented until May 1915, when the colour sergeants appointed CSMs in 1913 were regraded thus].An infantry battalion had at most three WOs in 1914: the Sergeant major, the Bandmaster and possibly the Schoolmaster.

 

Sergeant Majors are indeed in the Army Lists, as a separate section.

 

It is true that subalterns were referred to as "Mr" within a unit, both when addressed by their seniors, and when referred to by their juniors. In writing in orders, WDs etc, almost always by correct rank.

[MBrockway]

In the 1/KRRC war diary, there's this entry for 22 Aug 1914 (two pages on from Andy's image above)

 

I draw your attention to the platoon "under Mr Lloyd"

 

This is 2/Lt H. C. LLOYD, 1/KRRC, definitely a subaltern.

 

Also many thanks to David - I had not realised the Warrant Officers were in the Monthly Army Lists - that is hugely useful!

 

However in the Aug 1914 list, the 1/KRRC battalion Serjeant-Major was W BECK.  No Wilkie in the section at all.

 

On that basis, I'll do some further investigation into the possibility that "Mr. C. H. Wilkie" in the war diary could be a typo for 2/Lt A. H. Wilkie.

 

My partner had appendicitis about two years back and after the docs whipped it out, she was back in action (against medical advice!) after two weeks!

 

Mark

 

[sotonmate]

7 hours ago, Nick1914 said:

Also working on embarkation into Marseilles by overseas regiments from India & Indian Army in October 1914. 

Ledgers at Kew in the WO25 series have sea transport manifests, in this case it may be that you will find Oct 1914 Between Bases Abroad will help, WO25/3698. Has to be read in situ though.

[Nick1914]

Many thanks gentlemen, most useful research. I'm keen to add Wilkie to my list once/if his identity has been verified.  Curious how some officers just seem to have "slipped through the net".  I have a whole list of 1914 casualties that as yet I haven't been able to trace using every source I can think of but nothing comes up.  Currently finding the London Gazette(direct input rather than web search) brings up some good answers and really rely on Harts 1914 Army List as opposed to the official Army List.

 

Best, Nick

[Nick1914]

Dear Sotonmate, thanks for the WO reference.  Just reviewed Gordon Corrigan's "Sepoys in the Trenches" this morning and much good stuff on both the Lahore & Meerut embarkations, as always gaps which the primary sources can fill.

Best, Nick

[MBrockway]

I haven't found any reference to 2/Lt AH Wilkie returning to duty in the 1/KRRC war diary ... and there are certainly several other references to officers returning from hospital.

 

However his first Mention in Despatches is in the LG Issue 28942 16 Oct 1914, Second Supplement, page 8356

 

This LG Issue contains the second and third of French's despatches: 17 Sep 1914 and 08 Oct 1914.  They cover the Marne and Aisne battles.

 

It includes this paragraph ...

 

 ... which references this paragraph in his first despatch published in LG 28897 08 Sep 1914, Third Supplement, page 7192 (the link's for the start of the despatch, not p7192) ...

 

 

 ... and *appears* to imply that the list of MiD's appended to the 16 Oct LG issue relates to actions described in French's first despatch of 07 Sep 1914 covering Mons and Le Cateau.

 

This is the 1/KRRC list (with the corrections published in the LG in December 1914 to the right) ...

 

 

Of these names, Bonham-Carter and Butler were wounded on 10 Sep, 2712 Rfn Thomas Wall was KiA on 14 Sep, Capt Ranken RAMC died on 25 Sep from wounds sustained on 19 Sep (from British artillery), and Lt.-Col. Northey was wounded on 27 Sep, which perhaps reinforces that they probably had done something worthy of an MiD earlier than 10 Sep 1914.

 

That strongly suggest 2/Lt Archibald Wilkie was back with the battalion before 07 Sep 1914 and had certainly rejoined by 08 Oct 1914 when French's third despatch was published.

 

Ranken incidentally was awarded the VC for his gallantry on 19 Sep 1914. 

 

 

Since I can find no trace of a Warrant Officer named Wilkie, & spotting 2/Lt Lloyd is referenced in the WD as "Mr Lloyd", I'm now inclined to change my earlier conclusion and go with "Mr C.H. Wilkie" who was repatriated with appendicitis on 13 Aug 1914, being a typo for 2/Lt A.H. Wilkie ... exactly as per Martin's suggestion in Post #16 higher up 

 

Clearly Wilkie bounced back from his appendectomy as quickly as my partner ... even without the benefits of keyhole surgery

Mark

[lostinspace]

Nick,

 

According to "Hart's Army List" for 1913, as of 19 February, A.H. Wilkie was a 2nd Lieutenant in the Special Reserve of the King's Royal Rifles (p. 461). 
Also, the January 1920 (war services) list shows A.H. Wilkie as Mentioned in Despatches again on 15 May, 1917 and was a Captain (maybe a brevet?) by the end of the war (p.1769)
There is no mention of a C.H. Wilkie in any of the lists I consulted.

Dave

 

[MBrockway]

9 minutes ago, lostinspace said:

Nick,

 

According to "Hart's Army List" for 1913, as of 19 February, A.H. Wilkie was a 2nd Lieutenant in the Special Reserve of the King's Royal Rifles (p. 461). 
Also, the January 1920 (war services) list shows A.H. Wilkie as Mentioned in Despatches again on 15 May, 1917 and was a Captain (maybe a brevet?) by the end of the war (p.1769)
There is no mention of a C.H. Wilkie in any of the lists I consulted.

Dave

 

Dave,

Did you follow the link I posted in #17 higher up?

 

Captain A. H. Wilkie 1st King's Royal Rifle Corps

 

All this and a great deal more is detailed there.  Wilkie ended the war as Captain, temporary Major.

 

Cheers,

Mark

 

Edited 17 July , 2017 by MBrockway