Can you help with information on this young soldier

[alantaylor2004@hotmail.com]

Hi there,

I picked this picture up in a car boot (£2.00) and thought I would try my best in find out something about him. Every picture tells a story as they say. Can anyone identify the regiment and the uniform. Is there anything else that stands out that may give a clue?

On the back it does say "Mrs Mills 127 Woodard Road and 2nd Oak.

I do have a picture of the back which I tried to upload but it would not allow (to big) however I will try and send it separately.

Thanking you in advance for any help you can give me.

Regards,

Alan

Hi again,

This is the back!!!

Cheers,

Alan

[seaJane]

On the offchance that it's local to you, I can tell you that there's a Woodward Road in Dagenham.

I think the rest is "Friday 2" Oak, ?Slip?, 6/-" which I would suggest is the collection date, with an order for a two-inch oak frame costing six shillings. I'm not sure about "Slip" but it may be something to do with the cover or backing?

He looks so young ...

[clk]

There's a Louise Elizabeth Mills living at 127 Woodwarde Road, Dulwich in various electoral registers in the1920/30s

Regards

Chris

[KevinBattle]

Wearing a Sam Browne , he'd be an officer and so young he'd have to be a 2nd Lieutenant.

Given they had practically the highest casualty rate, there might be a CWGC entry for Woodward Road

- but there doesn't seem to be any for either Woodard or Woodward Road that seems to fit.

There may have been a change of address between photo and possible death or no Additional Information supplied by the family.

By the dark look of the epaulette button, looks as if a Rifle regiment and someone should recognise the cap badge...

There are 1212 entries for Mills without a Service Number, none relate to Dagenham.....

Someone with more expertise.

Getting the regiment might provide clues to a locality

[seaJane]

I think Chris is nearer the mark with Dulwich and Woodwarde Road than I was with Dagenham.

Isn't that cap badge the Rifles? Ox and Bucks?

[Steven Broomfield]

The cap badge is a rifle regiment, but whether 60th, RB or a London regiment battalion I couldn't say: the colour of the cord boss would tell. Actually, he might even be a Gurkha officer, possibly (though I'm not so certain). I'm afraid I don't know if any rifle regiment officers wore collar dogs, in which case the absence thereof would say something.

Ox & Bucks would have the bugle cap badge and the gorget-tab collar dogs (and both Sam Browne straps).

[JMB1943]

From the cap badge only, I would guess at any of the following Light Infantry Regts., DURHAM; KING'S SHROPSHIRE; SOMERSET; OX & BUCKS.

From CWGC, the best/only match is Capt. Frank Symons Mills, SLI, d. 5-Aug-17. (Search on rank from 2/Lt to Major)

From MIC, next of kin is Mrs. H. Mills, Babbacombe Rd., Torquay. Is there a Woodward Rd. in the area ?

Of course, if he survived then he will not have a CWGC entry.

Regards,

JMB

[seaJane]

From MIC, next of kin is Mrs. H. Mills, Babbacombe Rd., Torquay. Is there a Woodward Rd. in the area ?

JMB

Not as far as I can see, but I may not have looked hard enough.

[clk]

Alan,

Does the name/address of the photographers studio appear on the photo?

Regards

Chris

[JMB1943]

It has been assumed that this is a Great War photo, when it could actually be pre- or post-war.

If a GW photo, then not Frank Symons Mills, because he had 9yrs service in 1915 (commd. into SLI in 1906) and was already a Lt. at probably about 30 yrs old.

Regards,

JMB

[Steven Broomfield]

I am almost certain he's not a Light Infantry officer. He's an officer from a Rifles regiment. LI regiments did not wear the cord boss, I believe. That distinction was reserved for Rifles (and the Royal berkshire Regiment)

[MBrockway]

The cap badge is a rifle regiment, but whether 60th, RB or a London regiment battalion I couldn't say: the colour of the cord boss would tell. Actually, he might even be a Gurkha officer, possibly (though I'm not so certain). I'm afraid I don't know if any rifle regiment officers wore collar dogs, in which case the absence thereof would say something.

Ox & Bucks would have the bugle cap badge and the gorget-tab collar dogs (and both Sam Browne straps).

Certainly officers in the KRRC (aka the 60th) wore a silver strung bugle on a scarlet corded boss and known as the "cherry".

Unfortunately several other affiliated units followed suit including some of the KRRC-affiliated London Regiment battalions.

Another group of possibilities, given his apparent youth, is the KRRC's 1st Cadet Battalion based at Sun Street in the City, or the Church Lads Brigade Cadets (not 16th (Service) Battalion, KRRC (Church Lads Brigade)), not to mention several rifles affiliated school cadet units!

I rather suspect officers in some of the other TF units with rifles traditions may well also have adopted corded bosses - e.g. 6th KLR (Liverpool Rifles), Robin Hoods Rifles etc. etc.

As regards the OBLI, I believe their TF rifles battalion - the Buckinghamshire Battalion - had a maltese cross on their corded boss rather than a strung bugle. The other battalions as Steven has said, wore the standard OBLI cap badge - no corded boss - and the gorget tabs.

And then of course there are Commonwealth units whose officers also wore corded bosses - from Canada, South Africa, New Zealand and certainly the Gurkhas. I think the Gurkha units generally mounted variations of the crossed kukri, but I'm sure at least some of these Commonwealth units would have used the simple strung bugle KRRC-style.

He's not Rifle Brigade though - RB officers wore the maltese cross in laurel wreath, not the cord boss.

In my opinion we can rule out Light Infantry as his epaulette is clearly held by a blackened rifles button.

Kipling & King is rather thin on these corded bosses and I would certainly value any suggestions for an alternative definitive reference work from other Pals! I think Irv Mortensen wrote a series of articles in the 1980's on these corded bosses in Crown Imperial, but how one would get hold of those now I have no idea.

Despite raising all these many options, my money is on the cadets.

Cheers,

Mark

[MBrockway]

There's a Louise Elizabeth Mills living at 127 Woodwarde Road, Dulwich in various electoral registers in the1920/30s

Regards

Chris

WARNING: massive speculation alert! Extremely unrigorous hypothesis follows!

This recent fleaBay lot was described as the corded boss cap badge of an officer in the 570th Light Anti-Aircraft/Searchlight Regiment Royal Artillery (First Surrey Rifles) (T.A.).

[source: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/201355753958]

This unit is the post-1947 incarnation of the First Surrey Rifles. Jumping backwards through time the First Surrey Rifles were 21st (County of London) Battalion, The London Regiment (First Surrey Rifles), earlier the 1st Surrey (South London) Volunteer Rifle Corps and affiliated as the 1st Volunteer Battalion, East Surreys.

Despite this East Surreys affiliation, their cap badge was a KRRC-style maltese cross and they jealously maintained their rifles traditions, which would explain why a TA Ack-Ack officer in the late 1940's was still wearing a "cherry" boss cap badge - hard to imagine anything further from a rifleman!

Dulwich College OTC was affiliated to the First Surrey Rifles and it's certainly possible that an officer in the school cadets would also have worn the KRRC-style "cherry".

So we could build a scenario here where this is a dayboy pupil of Dulwich College, an officer in the school OTC, son of Mrs Louise Mills later living at Woodwarde Road, Dulwich.

Clearly this is off the scale on the Forum's Pure Uncorroborated Speculation meter ... but you never know

Enjoy!

Mark

[FROGSMILE]

As Steven has said, this officer is either, KRRC or one of the affiliated London Regiment battalions, several of which emulated KRRC style of insignia. There were also one or two other TF units that followed similar lines, but the absence of collar badges makes KRRC very likely. Here is a KRRC officer to compare: http://www.ww1photos.com/Archive_Officer_KRRC.jpg

[Khaki]

A slip is a wooden insert that sits on the inside of a frame to add another dimension in the same general idea as double matting does.

khaki

[MBrockway]

Info from the 1919 Post Office London County Directory ...

127 Woodwarde Road, East Dulwich, SE22 = GAUTREY, Harold Thomas

Mills, Louisa (Mrs.), dressmaker, 7 Woodland Road, Norwood, SE19

Mills, Miss, 28 Woodland Road, Norwood, SE19

[seaJane]

(an addition to the Great Speculation!)

Here are the Dulwich College Fallen of the Great War, each being added on the centenary of his death: http://www.dulwich.org.uk/college/news-events/exhibitions

Might be worth getting in touch with the college archivist to check for a Mills?

[MBrockway]

Reverting to a more rigorous approach, the only KRRC subaltern I can find is 2/Lt H.J.F. (Henry James Fosbery) MILLS.

He was born on 18 Apr 1895 in Dunedin, New Zealand. Son of Sir James Mills, KCMG, a New Zealand born shipping magnate, who was at 60 Prince's Gate, South Kensington by late summer 1917.

He was commissioned as a 2/Lt in the KRRC from the RMC, Sandhurst on 11 Nov 1914.

He embarked in Feb 1915 just short of twenty years of age, joining 3/KRRC as far as I can tell from his MIC.

He is listed as Wounded in the 1915 KRRC Chronicle, but with 1/KRRC and undated. That particular appendix is somewhat unreliable though.

He was promoted Lieutenant 24 Aug 1915.

He next appears in July 1917 with 2/KRRC in command of C Company. He is absent from the 2/KRRC nominal roll of officers of 01 Jan 1917.

He is taken POW at the Battle of the Dunes at Nieuport on 10 Jul 1917. This action is covered extensively elsewhere here on the Forum.

He was promoted Captain while in enemy hands but effective 23 Mar 1917 (LG 13 Nov 1917).

He married Gladys NORTON on 27 Oct 1920, got divorced in 1931. He rejoined the KRR's for WW2 from the Reserve of Officers being made up to temp. Major effective 09 Jul 1941.

He died 16 Sep 1976.

[source: John Cooper's Putney Vale Cemetery gallery]

Because of all the reasons we have already outlined, we cannot be 100% certain that your photo is of a KRRC officer. I merely offer Henry Mills as a good candidate if he indeed is.

Mark

Edited 24 July , 2015 by MBrockway

[JMB1943]

A search of CWGC for officers of rank 2/Lt to Major, commemorated in Belgium, France and the UK finds 3, 7 and 4 candidates, respectively.

None are KRRC or RB, unless I have totally missed one. However, there is a Capt. Mills in each of the RFC & RAF.

And also, the young presumed 2/Lt may have survived.

Regards,

JMB

[MBrockway]

A search of CWGC for officers of rank 2/Lt to Major, commemorated in Belgium, France and the UK finds 3, 7 and 4 candidates, respectively.

None are KRRC or RB, unless I have totally missed one. However, there is a Capt. Mills in each of the RFC & RAF.

And also, the young presumed 2/Lt may have survived.

Regards,

JMB

I can confirm I have no officer with surname MILLS in my database of the KRRC Fallen. He cannot be Rifle Brigade - the RB officers cap badge is the standard maltese cross in a laurel wreath. The RB did not use the corded boss on the service cap.

That still leaves all the various London Regt battalions that used the corded boss of course.

If only the photo stretched to include the shoulder title!

[Blackblue]

1911 Census they are at 21 Glengall Road. There is a son named Donald George born 1911 who appears in post war registers with Elizabeth at 127 Woodwarde. Might it be a Post War photo? Maiden name is Bowmer. 1901 Census there is a Henry Bowmer, but he is 23 then so too old.

George Alfred Mills 37

Louise Elizabeth Mills 35

Vera Ada Louise Mills 3

Donald George Mills 1

Jane Bowmer

Also a family tree in Ancestry. Their are a few nephews who could be candidates.

http://trees.ancestry.com.au/tree/28808664/person/12590083221?ssrc=&ml_rpos=1

A KRRC of the same name as one nephew who may fit the bill:

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1125080

Definitely a nephew - same parents names:

http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead/casualty/598310/BAILEY,%20ALFRED%20JOHN

Rank:Second LieutenantDate of Death:03/09/1916Age:19Regiment/Service:King's Royal Rifle Corps 17th Bn. Grave Reference: II. A. 15. Cemetery:HAMEL MILITARY CEMETERY, BEAUMONT-HAMELAdditional Information:Son of Alfred James and Ada Emmeline Bailey, of 120, Grove Lane, Camberwell, London.

http://trees.ancestry.com.au/tree/28808664/person/12546697158?ssrc=&ml_rpos=3

Rgds

Tim D

[Steven Broomfield]

I can confirm I have no officer with surname MILLS in my database of the KRRC Fallen. He cannot be Rifle Brigade - the RB officers cap badge is the standard maltese cross in a laurel wreath. The RB did not use the corded boss on the service cap.

That still leaves all the various London Regt battalions that used the corded boss of course.

If only the photo stretched to include the shoulder title!

As an officer, would he have worn a shoulder title?

I was (appallingly) thinking about this in bed last night (the Horror) and it struck me that the absence of a collar "T" might suggest he's not from one of the London battalions (OK, the T might be missing late-war, but it's a thought), so I'd go with the 60th Rifles (KRRC). I confess I didn't realise RB officers didn't wear the boss.

[Honora]

Dear All

Has anyone considered the following:

How sure are we his surname was Mills? Is it possible the photo belonged to eg his married sister?

Sorry because it puts us even further away from an answer.

He is so young...

Honora

[Blackblue]

Read my last. Nephew named Bailey was KIA. 17th KRRC.

[Honora]

Sorry!