Canadawwi Posted 6 August , 2004 Share Posted 6 August , 2004 Hi! I will review my list. I was able to do a sort of my main database the other night and come up with a list of 200 possibilities, but I now need to check my files to see if I have info on where each one died. Most of these men probably died in local hospitals. I will edit the list, and then send whatever I find on to you. I need a bit of time, as I'm having the usual workplace emergencies, but I have started setting up the spreadsheet. Marika Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmyjames Posted 27 August , 2004 Share Posted 27 August , 2004 Hi Terry I wonder if you have Lt Claude Norman Champion de Crespigny, 2nd Dragoon Guards, killed in action 1st September 1914 and buried in Hatfield Peverel. His name is mentioned in a local newspaper in July 1915, but as yet I hav'nt found his connection with Cheltenham. Regards Jimmy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 27 August , 2004 Author Share Posted 27 August , 2004 Jimmy Thanks for putting him forward but I have him recorded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Tulloch-Marshall Posted 28 August , 2004 Share Posted 28 August , 2004 burial before the practice was banned in mid-1915 (and a few after this date as well!). Terry - it would probably surprise me if I could come up with anything which you have not already found but how about the following > 2nd Lieut Henry James Scott, 1/4th Bn Queens Own Cameron Highlanders. Wounded at Loos 25/9/15. Twenty-five year old 2nd Lieutenant Henry James Scott is mentioned by Lieutenant Ian Mackay in a letter to his mother on October 6th 1915; "We spent two or three hours in those quarries and it was not a pleasant spot as the Germans were shelling it heavily and in addition there was a perfect deluge of rain which wet us through. Scott, one of my officers, was hit here and we are very sorry to see that he had died of his wound. He was a delightful fellow whom I got very fond of." The "79th News" of January 1916 records that Henry Scott died as a result of these wounds on the 29th of September at "No2 Base Hospital, Rouen". All sources found so far agree that Henry Scott was wounded on the night of the 25th-26th, and died on the 29th of September. Second Lieutenant Henry James Scott is buried in Plot 15, Row F, Grave 1 at Annan Cemetery, Dumfries, Scotland. The cemetery is in the road out of Annan, towards Lockerbie, and contains fifteen graves of men who died during the Great War. The cemetery register gives only the barest detail regarding Scott, and offers no clue as to how it may have transpired that he was buried here. His gravestone (a striking construction with an officer's sword draped over a cross) carries engravings which confirm his death at No2 Red Cross Hospital on September 29th, and also records that his funeral took place at St. John's Church, Annan, on October 5th). ............... do I win a prize or am I doomed to hear that not only do you aleady know about him but his parents names were .................. etc .............. and I've a terrible confession to make - I have never checked whether there is a file for him at TNA - he wasnt on the 19/2/15 sailing list for the Bn, which is where I drew the line for making systematic WO339 / 363 / 364 / 374 searches. regards - Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 28 August , 2004 Author Share Posted 28 August , 2004 Tom You've scored! You win today's cigar! I have not got a note of Scott but I shall add him to the list. As there are a least two references to him dying in Rouen, he certainly qualifies. Thanks Tom. I'll try to return the favour one day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jock Bruce Posted 28 August , 2004 Share Posted 28 August , 2004 If it adds anything - I can only find one Henry James Scott with a connection to Annan in the online genealogical records for Scotland He was born in Annan on 6 Oct 1889 to Alexander Scott (a solicitor) and his wife Agnes (nee Geddes). The birth was actually registered as 'Rachel-Rosa Scott' - a marginal note in the register of birth refers to a 'correction of the child's name and sex'. In the 1891 census the family was living at 14 St John's Road, Annan and consited of Alexander Head 39 Agnes Wife age illegible Alexander W Son 5 Rachel Rosa Daur 3 Henry James Son 1 I can only presume that when Alexander registered Henry's birth he was somewhat 'overcome with emotion' and confused his new-born son with his daughter. By the time of the 1901 census Alexander junior and Henry were boarders at Stanley House School in Bridge of Allan, Perthshire. Their father and mother were still living in Annan. I can find no record of any marriage in Scotland. Jock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Tulloch-Marshall Posted 29 August , 2004 Share Posted 29 August , 2004 You've scored! You win today's cigar! Terry - so kind, but I only smoke little ones so should I expect a box ? Seriously though - HJ Scott being brought back to Scotland late Sept / early Oct 1915 ... were any of the other men on your list that "late" during the war ? (from a war zone, that is). Many years ago I made a diversion on a trip to Edinburgh and visited his grave, - a very striking affair; very "military". It was pouring with rain at the time, just like the day he was wounded - a sobering moment. I'll have a look for a file this week and see if Jock's find is the correct man. If there is anything relevant I'll let you know. regards - Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 29 August , 2004 Author Share Posted 29 August , 2004 Tom A whole box! They're bad for your health! Yes, Scott is the latest to be repatriated from the Western Front. The latest otherwise were in June 1915. This did make me wonder at first if, in fact, he had been brought back wounded and died in the UK - despite what it says on the memorial. I will be interested in any record you might turn up. Later repatriations were either clandestine or from non-war zones. Many Canadians were repatriated from the UK and USA 1917 onwards. This, of course, excludes the three Unknown Soldiers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris.wight Posted 30 August , 2004 Share Posted 30 August , 2004 Terry, did Major J. L. Duval, CAMC qualify for your list? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 30 August , 2004 Author Share Posted 30 August , 2004 Duval is listed on the Hollybrook Memorial which means that he was probably lost at sea. What info do you have to suggest he was returned to either the UK or Canada? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris.wight Posted 31 August , 2004 Share Posted 31 August , 2004 Terry, Major Duval served as the Officer Commanding 1st Coy, Field Ambulance, CAMC. During the second Battle of Ypres, 25th April 1915, he was severely wounded in both legs. He was sent from Vlamertinghe to hospital in Boulogne and from there invalided to England where he died in London on the 26th August, 1915. His body was being returned for burial in Canada on board the Hesperian when she was torpedoed on the 4th September, 1915 near Fastnet and sank on the 6th during an unsuccessful attempt to tow the ship back to port. This was from Norm Christie's Book, "For King and Empire - The Canadians at Ypres". Throughout it there is a Roll of Honour with photographs but no mention is made in the references from where the obituaries were taken. Ted Wigney's book mentions Major Duval was listed in the de Ruvigney Roll of Honour so I'm assuming these came from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 31 August , 2004 Author Share Posted 31 August , 2004 Chris He will not qualify for a full listing as he was not actually repatriated but he will appear as a footnote. I have a similar entry for an Australian soldier lost in the same circumstances. Thanks for the input. It all adds to the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredJCarss Posted 31 August , 2004 Share Posted 31 August , 2004 Terry While compiling my list of grave to photograph at the end of sept I came on the following - both buried in Dundee Eastern Necropolis in 1918 and listed as DOW in F&F in Soldiers Died. MYLES. A 201376 Pte 6th Black Watch PETRIE. ROBERT FRASER(served as FRASER. ROBERT FRASER) 240629 Pte 4/5th Black Watch. Any ideas? Fred (ps I believe the 6th Bn published casualty lists to be the most inaccurate of the regiment.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 31 August , 2004 Author Share Posted 31 August , 2004 Fred These men died in the UK. There were no repatriations of UK other ranks during the war. SDGW is very inaccurate in respect of locations of death and often gives 'F&F' for men who were actually returned home wounded but then died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FredJCarss Posted 31 August , 2004 Share Posted 31 August , 2004 Thanks Terry I will amend my records. Another puzzle solved! Fred Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Tulloch-Marshall Posted 31 August , 2004 Share Posted 31 August , 2004 I can only find one Henry James Scott with a connection to Annan in the online genealogical records for Scotland. He was born in Annan on 6 Oct 1889 to Alexander Scott (a solicitor) and his wife Agnes (nee Geddes). .................................. I can find no record of any marriage in Scotland. Jock - you are correct. His file ref is WO374/60887 (unfortunately heavily weeded in 1960) - it confirms the father as Solicitor Alexander Scott of St John's, Annan, his partnership being Scott & Cunningham of Annan. You didnt find a marriage reference because HJ Scot was "celibataire" (as certificate below). Terry - it appears to be a cast-iron repatriation. Field return AF.B.2090A shows the death as No 2 Red Cross Hospital at Rouen and burial as "not reported". So does the draft form for administration (No 2 RCH that is); but the clincher is a French death certificate issued by the Mairie de Rouen which confirms HJ's birth as St John (sic) Annan and amongst other things gives the time of death as 00.53 am 29/9/15 at Rouen. Unfortunately there is nothing like War Office "permission to travel" documents for the father to link the death to the burial in Annan - but that must have happened between 29/9 and 5/10/15 so it must have been arranged very quickly. Someone knew which strings to pull - any idea how this could have happened ? ................ so, confirmed then - the "last" repatriation to the UK from F&F was a Territorial Officer in my grandfathers battalion (?). regards - Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 31 August , 2004 Author Share Posted 31 August , 2004 Tom Looks a certain as you say. Well done. He is now confirmed in my listing. I have emailed Cuba for a box of their finest - but smallest! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jock Bruce Posted 31 August , 2004 Share Posted 31 August , 2004 Someone knew which strings to pull - any idea how this could have happened ? Tom, I was wondering the same thing - I can understand how the nobility could manage this, but a solicitor in a wee Scots town ??? Only thing I could think of is that he was 'man o' business' to the local gentry? I'm planning to get out to Colindale on Saturday, I'll have a look at The Annandale Observer and Advertiser for clues. Jock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pete Wood Posted 31 August , 2004 Share Posted 31 August , 2004 Please can someone run through the likely scenario of having a loved one repatriated. Mr Scott, government telegram in hand (announcing the death of Henry), lifts up the phone to speak to....?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 31 August , 2004 Author Share Posted 31 August , 2004 Whilst not knowing the exact process yet, I do not think that there was any problem before the ban was in place - provided the army had a body and the relatives had the cash and a good undertaker. However, after the ban it should have been impossible. I can only think that the ban took some time to become effective (though September is very late) and that, possibly, Mr Scott did know someone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pete Wood Posted 31 August , 2004 Share Posted 31 August , 2004 As a kid, I seem to recall that in an episode of 'Upstairs Downstairs,' the Bellamy (?) family simply took a car to France and collected the wounded James B. How, in real life, would you have taken the car/hearse to France....?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 31 August , 2004 Author Share Posted 31 August , 2004 I don't think a hearse would go to France. I suspect the army would deliver a coffin and casualty to a nominated port and a hearse would collect on the other side after the crossing. However, this is only guesswork as I am still concentrating on 'who' rather than 'how' at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Tulloch-Marshall Posted 1 September , 2004 Share Posted 1 September , 2004 I'm planning to get out to Colindale on Saturday, I'll have a look at The Annandale Observer and Advertiser for clues. Jock - nice one - I'd be very pleased to hear of anything you find, especially the chance there may be a photo of HJ Scott. If there is then will you please place a copy order with the NNL and I'll sort out £££ reimbursement with you next time I see you at TNA. Key dates - wounded at Loos 25/9/15 - funeral at Annan 5/10/15. If there is anything it shouldnt be too hard to find Terry - "finest - but smallest" - well at least the box wouldnt have any dire messages on it (from Havana, that is) ! regards - Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jock Bruce Posted 4 September , 2004 Share Posted 4 September , 2004 The Annandale Observer of 7 Oct explains all. In a nutshell - 27 Sep - Scott familiy receive telegram saying Henry dangerously wounded and in British Red Cross Hospital, Rouen. Father and mother start for Rouen but WO will only allow father to cross to France. 30 Sep - Father arrives in Rouen by which time Henry has died. But he 'found friends in the commandant of the hospital, Major Irwin (related to Col Irving of Bonshaw) and Mr Lowther Nicholson of Kent Lodge, acting orderly. A request was made to the British and French authorities .......' 5 Oct - funeral in Annan, with miltary honours provided by 3/5 KOSB. Attendees include the Col Irving mentioned above. Tom - copy of article and photo ordered. Jock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 4 September , 2004 Author Share Posted 4 September , 2004 Jock Well done. Brilliant info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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