edwin astill Posted 14 February , 2009 Share Posted 14 February , 2009 I am interested in Samuel Hugh Newman, who was thought to have been in the REs during the war. However, these phots of him taken just before the war (1910?) show him in different units. I am not at all up on cap badges, but can anyone help identify the units, please? Thanks Edwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
River97 Posted 14 February , 2009 Share Posted 14 February , 2009 Edwin, The one on the left could be the badge for the King's Royal Rifle Corps and the right could be a form of Royal fusiliers. Cheers Andy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwin astill Posted 14 February , 2009 Author Share Posted 14 February , 2009 Thanks Andy, hope you are free from flood and fire in your part of Australia. Edwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 16 February , 2009 Share Posted 16 February , 2009 Edwin, The one on the left could be the badge for the King's Royal Rifle Corps and the right could be a form of Royal fusiliers. Cheers Andy. Edwin, The left hand one could definitely be KRRC, but there are a number of territorial units with connections to the two rifles regiments that used variants of the KRRC Maltese cross (e.g. The Rangers, the QVRs, the Queens Westminsters). These were mostly in London and were all rolled up into the new London Regiment in 1908 ... along with some Royal Fusiliers territorial units, which might be relevant since the right hand cap badge is clearly one of the fusiliers/grenadiers group of regiments. Does Samuel have London territorial connections? The Sherwood Foresters, Border Regiment and the Bedfords also had badges based on maltese crosses - though less "sturdy" than the KRRC version. We can discount the Rifle Brigade as their maltese cross is surrounded by a laurel wreath. Samuel's cap badge here definitely is closest to the KRRC style. I'll do some digging to see if I can turn him up in the KRRC. Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 16 February , 2009 Share Posted 16 February , 2009 The only "Fusilier" badge that small and only being the bomb and flames that comes to mind is 7th battalion the London Regiment. And they were not "Fusiliers". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 16 February , 2009 Share Posted 16 February , 2009 I am interested in Samuel Hugh Newman, who was thought to have been in the REs during the war. However, these phots of him taken just before the war (1910?) show him in different units. I am not at all up on cap badges, but can anyone help identify the units, please? Thanks Edwin Edwin, One possible lead - the Signalling Section of The Rangers (12th London Regiment) was transferred to the Royal Engineers in August 1914 during the mobilisation process. The Rangers cap badge is very similar to the KRRC's but has a folded scroll under the maltese cross. If it's there at all on your photo of Samuel, this would be obscured under the chin strap. I'll continue digging. Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 17 February , 2009 Share Posted 17 February , 2009 Edwin, I have failed to find an MIC for any Samuel Newman in the KRRC. There are several possible Royal Engineers MICs, but none of them have transfers from the KRRC or London Regiment. Apologies! Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwin astill Posted 17 February , 2009 Author Share Posted 17 February , 2009 Newman was a Londoner, I believe. Thanks for the help. Edwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony paley Posted 17 February , 2009 Share Posted 17 February , 2009 Samuel, Possibly Kings Royal Rifles Corps but it looks very much like one of the affiliated London Regts. which could explain 2nd Badge, very much like 7th London, can't quite make out the figure 7 which should be on the ball of the grenade. I understand men could be transferred. If he was from London and in the T.A that could be your answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 20 February , 2009 Share Posted 20 February , 2009 Samuel, Possibly Kings Royal Rifles Corps but it looks very much like one of the affiliated London Regts. which could explain 2nd Badge, very much like 7th London, can't quite make out the figure 7 which should be on the ball of the grenade. I understand men could be transferred. If he was from London and in the T.A that could be your answer. For info on the affiliations betwwen the KRRC/Rifle Brigade and the various former Rifle Volunteer units in the London Regiment see this Topic that Andy and I have been working up: London Regiment's former Volunteer Rifle Corps units, Links between LR, KRRC and Rifle Brigade The "Shiny Seventh" was indeed affiliated to the KRRC. Before 1908 (I think) it was a figure "3" on the ball of the grenade as they were the 3rd City of London Rifle Volunteer Corps. The KRRC-style maltese cross badge could be 6th LR ("Cast Iron Sixth"), 9th LR (Queen Victoria's Rifles), 11th LR (Finsbury Rifles), 12th LR (The Rangers), 16th LR (Queen's Westminster Rifles), and possibly the 23rd LR (First Surrey Rifles) [Edit 28 Feb: that should of course be 21st LR - doh!], though the latter two had scrolls under the cross (usually!). Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 20 February , 2009 Share Posted 20 February , 2009 Pals, Also here's the link to the KRRC cap badge Topic from a while back that covers the details of the KRRC variants (the badge info starts a little way down after the specific stuff about my grandfather): L/Cpl John Brockway, R/6479, 12th & 16th KRRC, ... including general information on KRRC cap badges Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRONNO Posted 20 February , 2009 Share Posted 20 February , 2009 quote, I am not at all up on cap badges, but can anyone help identify the units, please? Thanks, Edwin. Army Chaplain ? BRONNO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 20 February , 2009 Share Posted 20 February , 2009 Army Chaplain ? BRONNO. Bronno, If you look carefully at the right arm of the cross in Edwin's photo, you'll see is has the characteristic triangular indentation of the maltese cross. It is not so obvious on the other arms, but I am confident this is a maltese cross. I think the chaplain's badges were simple straight-ended Greek crosses. Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 20 February , 2009 Share Posted 20 February , 2009 Edwin, Is there any chance you could post a version of the left-hand photo showing a bit more of the tunic? Both the tunic and the cap look very dark, which could indicate a rifles regiment dress tunic, though the cap rather than rifles busby would suggest a senior NCO rather than a Rifleman. A wider view might help us confirm the KRRC or a KRRC-related regiment - e.g. if he has blackened rifles buttons, etc. etc. Cheers, Mark PS How rare is it that we ask for a less zoomed-in picture?!?! LOL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 20 February , 2009 Share Posted 20 February , 2009 At present pointers seem to be swayed towards the grenade badge being a cap badge of the 7th Londons, which is very distinctive in its shape. However I'm not so sure and it actually looks like the SD cap badge of the Royal Marine Artillery to me, which itself was a plain grenade with distinctive flame. I actually have one in my collection and thats whats caught my eye. Are we definatley looking at the same badge wearer here as we have no face to look at on the second badge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 21 February , 2009 Share Posted 21 February , 2009 Here's an example of the "Shiny Seventh" (7th Btn London Regiment) cap badge: You can see why they got the nickname! Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 21 February , 2009 Share Posted 21 February , 2009 Bronno, .. It is not so obvious on the other arms, but I am confident this is a maltese cross. I think the chaplain's badges were simple straight-ended Greek crosses. Cheers, Mark Bronno, I'm completely wrong there! The British Army Chaplain's Department badge is definitely a maltese cross! However it is surrounded by a wreath, so it looks more like a Rifle Brigade badge than the KRRC, where the arms of the cross are open: [image courtesy of Pal -tmm-] I was thinking of the Canadian chaplains, who used a greek cross that looks closer to Edwin's man ... except it does not have the incuts on the arm ends of the maltese cross: I'm still confident that Edwin's badge is KRRC or KRRC-related. Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Stewart Posted 21 February , 2009 Share Posted 21 February , 2009 Mark, You are correct he is a chaplain. As far as I'm aware they wore a plain cross with the 'station masters' cap as it was called and references will be found in Dress Regs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwin astill Posted 21 February , 2009 Author Share Posted 21 February , 2009 Thanks for the interest. I have been away for a few days, and have not responded to the request for a full photo of my man. Here it is. This may sort out some confusion. Regards Edwin (I have only just - after much bother - remembered how to make photos take up less space!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 22 February , 2009 Share Posted 22 February , 2009 Mark, You are correct he is a chaplain. As far as I'm aware they wore a plain cross with the 'station masters' cap as it was called and references will be found in Dress Regs. Graham, BRONNO's picture is a chaplain, but I'm still thinking that Edwin's original left hand picture is a rifleman in either the KRRC or one of the KRRC-related rifle volunteer territorial battalions of the London Regiment with 6th, 9th, 11th or 12th LR being the most likely. The fusiliers style badge in Edwin's original right picture gets my vote as being 7th London Regiment. What do you think? CHeers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 22 February , 2009 Share Posted 22 February , 2009 Thanks for the interest. I have been away for a few days, and have not responded to the request for a full photo of my man. Here it is. This may sort out some confusion. Regards Edwin Edwin, Thanks for posting the larger view! He is definitely wearing blackened buttons, which is consistent with KRRC and some of the London Regt units. There appears to be a clear colour difference between the tunic and the trousers, so we may perhaps infer that the tunic is not khaki. Having being caught out recently mis-identifying a tartan where a key indicator stripe was missing from the photo ... but only due to shortcomings with the photographic reproduction processes of the Great War period ... I'm nervous about stating conclusively that this is a rifle green tunic! Though it certainly could be! (Rifle green is a very dark green, almost black). Here's a detail from a picture of a KRRC Serjeant wearing the rifles dress tunic: You'll notice that the scarlet facings on the collar are not easily seen on this photo. This may be due to the photo-reproduction shortcomings I just mentioned . Here's a KRRC dress tunic sold on fleaBay as WW1 period (?!) to show the scarlet facings and an idea of how dark rifle green is: The black rifles buttons are also clear here. Also puzzling is that, IIRC, in the KRRC the rifle green tunic would be worn with rifle green trousers. Some of the London territorial units varied the standard rifles uniform though. Then again, I don't think puttees would be worn with No 1 Dress. With the edge of a tent in the background, your chap looks like he's on camp, so that may explain the puttees. In No 1 Full Dress, a rifleman would wear the rifles cap, which is a sort of short busby, with a plume. I don't know enough about the Dress Regulations as applied to the rifles regiments to really advise accurately on when/who would wear a rifle green service cap with a rifle green tunic. I suspect it could be No 1 worn for Walking Out. Here's a detail from a Gale & Polden postcard of the KRRC relaxing "off duty" and wearing rifle green service caps with rifle green tunics: We need some input from uniforms experts here! Sadly the quality of the picture is rather poor - I can't even make out pockets, let alone any details like rank insignia, which I think for the KRRC at this period would be black on a dark red background on a dress tunic (as per the pic above), nor the scarlet facings at cuff and collar. Are these any clearer on your original? As regards the dress tunics and facings worn by the rifles territorials battalions in the London Regiment, all bar one of those with the plain maltese cross badge (6th, 9th, 11th, 12th LR) wore rifle green with scarlet facings - i.e. exactly the same as the KRRC. The Queen's Westminsters (16th Londons) wore a grey tunic with scarlet facings, so if your chap is felt to be wearing a dress tunic, then we can eliminate him being in the QWRs. Incidentally, KRRC family legend has it that before the war Kaiser Bill reviewed the QWRs and was so impressed with their grey and scarlet uniform that he decided to use the grey for the German army. Probably apocryphal, but interesting nevertheless eh? He certainly donated a portrait of himself which still hangs in the QWR's London HQ ... somewhat of an embarassment come 1914 - it sat out the War in a cellar In case you have a larger view of your chap with his "fusiliers" style cap badge, the 7th Londons dress tunic was scarlet with buff facings. Hope all this helps advance things! Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwin astill Posted 23 February , 2009 Author Share Posted 23 February , 2009 Thanks for the pictures. Here is one of Newman's pals from the same photo. Regards Edwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 27 February , 2009 Share Posted 27 February , 2009 Another great picture Edwin! These definitely appear to be rifles dress tunics, though I've never seen them worn with tennis shoes & white flannels before - LOL!! I think we must conclude that dress at camp was a little mixed! The detail on the cap badges is still not good enough to separate KRRC from the related London Regiment units conclusively. However they do appear to be wearing blackened shoulder titles with the three tier shape characteristic of territorial regiments - "T" + "Battalion number" + "Regiment" - with the bottom tier ("Regiment") curved into an upwards arc. The KRRC's shoulder title was simply "KRR" in a straight line. I've also seen "KRRC" on fleaBay (!) but I suspect these were WW2 vintage. We can probably rule out the KRRC on that grounds - do we agree Pals? Looking at the badges next, those worn by these men appear to have the following features: maltese cross cross arms with very little or no writing (extremely difficult to be sure on this ) blackened small central boss voids in the boss (possibly at 10 o'clock and 4-5 o'clock approx??) voids in boss not symmetrical no scroll under cross motto and crown over cross no cloth backing (likewise extremely difficult to be certain on this) Within the London Regiment units, the plain Maltese cross narrows it down to 6th, 9th, 11th, 12th, 16th, and 21st (not 23rd as I said incorrectly above!) battalions. All these badges have very similar motto plaques and crowns above the cross. We have already eliminated the 16th Londons (Queen's Westminster Rifles) because their dress tunic was light grey not rifle green. We can eliminate 12th LR (The Rangers) and 21st LR (First Surrey Rifles) because their central bosses were much more prominent in proportion to the rest of the badge. Both these battalions usually had scrolls under the cross too - though I have seen a picture of a Rangers badge with this missing (possibly broken off?). That leaves 6th Londons (the "cast iron sixth"), 9th Londons (Queen Victoria's Rifles) and 11th Londons (Finsbury Rifles). As regards wording in the arms of the cross - 6th Londons had South Africa 1900-02 (very rarely 1899-1902) in the top cross arm only; the QVRs had blank cross arms; and 11th Londons had the rifle volunteer movement motto Pro Aris Et Focis spread one word in each of the four arms. Impossible to be confident on this one from the photo as posted, but maybe Edwin can see on his original?? All three battalions had voided central bosses, which for 6th and 11th Londons contained a strung bugle, exactly as the KRRC, while the QVRs had St George on his horse. For the strung bugle, the voids look pretty symmetrical at 10 o'clock, 2 o'clock and in the centre of the boss. For the QVRs boss, St George on his horse had an assymmetrical pattern with the body of horse lying diagonally between 8 and 2 o'clock. Again nearly impossible to be confident on this, but our boss here seems not to be symmetrical, so if I had to make a choice, I'd probably go for the 9th Londons (Queen Victoria Rifles) but that's a very marginal, low confidence identification. 9th Londons (QVRs) 6th Londons - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 11th Londons (Finsbury Rifles) - What does everyone else think? Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBrockway Posted 27 February , 2009 Share Posted 27 February , 2009 And talking of the QVRs, there are some lovely pre-war photos of the QVR in this Topic: Photographs - Queen Victoria Rifles pre-1914?, Uniform experts' help needed Good pictures of a mast [Edit July 2009 - that should have been "march"!] past in quicktime with rifles at the trail and some nice ones of mounted rifleman. They're mostly wearing the slouch hat with the odd pillbox cap, so the photos probably pre-date these here by 5 years or so. An interesting comparison. Cheers, Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwin astill Posted 27 February , 2009 Author Share Posted 27 February , 2009 I'll see if I can get the owner of the original to have a look through a magnifying glass. Copies of copies compressed do not improve the image. Thanks Edwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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