Brodie Shell refurbishment

[findabetterole]

Hello Chums,

With the increase of interest in WW.1 these past few years, the demand for genuine artifacts, especially 'battlefield finds', has grown increasingly. Also, with this new found interest, reenacting the WW.1 period has also grown, but at a lesser pace, but still a marked increase.

For myself, being a Lancashire Lad, I chose to form a reenactment group here in California which reflected my roots = 2nd Battalion Lancashire Fusiliers. (Great War Historical Society). An integral part of the British soldiers equipment which is on ever increasing demand, not only in its relic form, but refurbished for reenacting, is the 'Brodie' steel helmet. With this demand comes increasing prices. For want of keeping with authenticity, I refuse to accept a revamped WW.2 issue helmet, even though the price has a marked difference. This preference is also very clear to potencial recruits upon my battalion website.

I have recently refurbished a 'Brodie' shell for my own use, and due to the decent condition of the original, I did not carry out any re-painting. I have furnished two pics of the finished result. I also want to refurbish another 'Brodie' which is in the same condition as the first... pic also shown.

I would like to get a little feedback on the subject of refitting/refurbishing original 'Brodies' for reenacting. So my questions are as follows...

1) I feel that if the condition of the original 'Brodie' is around 90% sound in structure or paint finish, there is no need to re-paint. What are your views?

2) How far would you go to achieve the right period impression?

3) Do you feel that a complete re-paint is actually required on an original 'Brodie' shell in order for it to be accepted?

Seph

First refurbishment (with hessian cover)... then the next inline

[RobL]

1) From the photos, I wouldn't repaint your brodie, it looks good as it is, plus, to keep the paint as its part of its history, you can always just cover it, like you've done with the hessian cover

2) How far would I go to achieve the right period impression? Well, I even wear the correct underwear!

3) Same answer as for question one - if it's in bad condition, but you don't want to repaint it as it's part of its history, just put a cover over it.

I presume the liner is one of the excellent Military History Workshop ones?

[59165]

There is a cheaper way .

In Belgium,pre & post war helmets come up for sale for absolute peanuts & quite a few I have seen are Brodie shells,as in not round like ww2 ptn Brit ones.

You can do what you like with these as they have been already painted/repainted with a new liner so your not messing with history,so to speak.

[Simon R]

There is a cheaper way .

In Belgium,pre & post war helmets come up for sale for absolute peanuts & quite a few I have seen are Brodie shells,as in not round like ww2 ptn Brit ones.

So these are Belgian helmets? I'm sorry, but I'm not sure what you mean here - Brodie shells but not round??

[59165]

So these are Belgian helmets? I'm sorry, but I'm not sure what you mean here - Brodie shells but not round??

So sorry.What are Belgian helmets?

Not round on the dome is what I meant ,Simon.

Brodies have ( as I'm sure you've read) a non 'circular' dome,unlike the WW2 ptn.

Its why the front & back rim is shorter than the l & r sides on a Brodie.

[Simon R]

Ok.

Always good to be clear about exactly what we mean and what we're talking about.

Not everyone is an Old Sweat!

[dutchbarge]

Hello Seph,

Some years back, at least 10, maybe more, I drove from New Mexico to re-enact with the Lancashire Fusiliers in So. Cal. up near, if memory serves, Riverside? I was introduced to the LF by, here goes lousy memory again, a Brit named Hooper? At any rate I had a 2nd Lt's kit complete with cuff rank tunic, breeches, Sam Browne rig/webley with blanks (very LOUD blanks), gas mask, soft cap, brodie (helmets were required for the event), even proper brown officer's trench boots. Many commented on the authenticity of my re-enactment attire. But it was all duff. The tunic was restyled from a 1950's tunic, breeches were Ralph Lauren (the nicest piece of kit I had), the Sam Browne all 1950's, soft cap/gas mask GWM repros, and even the Webley had had its cylinder milled at some point to accept .45ACP (which was handy for getting blanks). The boots were Argentinian polo 'ratcatchers'. Even the Brodie was dodgey. The shell was correct but it had a repro liner also from GWM. I did however bring an original rum jar filled with Meyers rum. I remember (apart from a rash from poison oak) having had a super time. Sadly, due to the distances involved it was for me a one shot deal.

Considering the thousands of WW1 British brodies still in circulation, it was my choice to get a cheap shell, repaint with proper color paint laced with sand, apply LF yellow hackel, add GWM liner and chinstrap and play. Although I'd advise now that Prarie Flower Leather makes better repro liners. I could have taken a helmet from my collection, could indeed have kitted myself out head to toe in original items, but it just didn't seem worth risking any it, and not just for my own sake. I really do feel strongly that collectors (who only 'caretake' never really own their collection) do a service to posterity by passing along historical items to keep history alive. I know that re-enactors are sticklers for authencity. That's commendable. But as the munitions are blanks, the trenches don't go on for 500 miles (and aren't in Europe) I really feel that reproduction uniforms and kit should be considered. At one point during my brief re-enacting career, I tumbled into the German trenches ripping the seam of my breeches and tearing the elbow of my tunic. If this had been original gear I'd have been heartbroken. I think you get my drift. By the way, the photo in my avatar was taken at that event long ago. As I look at that photo I reckon that it must be more than 10 years ago as I certainly don't look much like that anymore! Cheers, BIll

PS: your helmets look great!

[findabetterole]

Thanks for the comments Bill... thats a great little story.. Loved it!. Just a tad before my time though. Lancashire Fusiliers... good choise, as thats also my reenactment Battalion = 2nd Battalion Lancashire Fusiliers. If your ever in the southern California area again.. please feel free to contact me. We'll kit you out properly so you can join us for a weekend of 'Getting to grips with the Hun'.

Reproduction kit, apart from the Rifle, Revolver, Light and Heavy MG's, Entrenching tool (complete), and the good old Battle Bowler... are the only period original items that we recommend to be used. Everything else is sourced from recommended and proven reproduction manufacturers/dealers.

We here in the Great War Historical Society... pride ourselves upoon the level of authenticity achieved through diligent reseasrch. Not just for the British battalions, but American, Canadian, New Zealanders, Australians, French, German and Austro-Hungarian.

In reference to British and Commonwealth officers tunics/jackets... the best sources are from post WW.1 to WW.2.

How shortlived was your reenacting career?

Seph

[montbrehain]

A pic i thought you may appreciate ? "MO"

[findabetterole]

Superb !!!

Where and when was it taken?

Whats unit does it show?

Seph

[RobL]

Blimey, the abominable snowman has had two kids! Where did you get the sheepskin jackets from? Could do with one for my 7th Leicesters impression

[montbrehain]

And this too. I am the handsome one (on the left) "MO"

[Chief_Chum]

The group picture shows men of the Khaki Chums, led by Cpl Steve Maltby, representing 'Hull Pals' of the 13th (Service) Battalion, East Yorkshire Regiment (known as 'T'Others') during the filming of the BBC TV series 'The Trench' in October 2001.

The programme took 25 volunteers from Hull and the Chums trained them at the British Army Training Regiment, Catterick for ten days before taking them to France to live in a reconstructed trench system near Cambrai for four weeks. The original War Diary of the 10th Battalion was followed exactly and movements into and out of the line to rest billets (in Flesquieres) was all done exactly when the battalion had made the same moves exactly 85 years earlier.

Besides providing all the Officers and NCOs for the volunteers, who were representing the 10th (Service) Battalion (The Hull Commercials), there was a need for a Platoon of Chums to hold the Front Line until the 10th arrived. These T'Others then held the Support Line (which is where the pictures were taken) and provided the ration and carrying parties for the men of the 10th when they were in the Front Line.

There was always at least fifty men in the trench system at any one time (all wearing the correct underwear!) although, apart from Chums Cpl Maltby, L/Cpl Stokes and Ptes Baker, Barnes and Forsdike, the rest of the T'Others had shorter tours of duty so as many of them as possible had the chance to take part in this amazing experience. The picture also shows Chums Ptes Hancock, Stedman, Bright, Matson, and The Tall Bloke.

Chum Bob Stedman made the goatskin jerkins to the same spec as the one on display in the Imperial War Museum (they are fantastic for keeping the wind and rain out).

Thanks for digging that one up Mo!

[montbrehain]

Thanks for that Taff, I appreciate (and was hoping) you doing the explanation. It was truly a once a in lifetime experience , and one that will stay with me forever. Good to see you on the Forum "MO"

[findabetterole]

Gentlemen... Whilst I fully appreciate the reenactment pics, we are however straying from the subject of this thread = "How far would you go with a Brodie refurbishment, to in order for it to be accepted as a period impression?"

Thank You!

Seph

[Chief_Chum]

'The Trench' programme mentioned above is a good illustration of the point you are asking about.

The 25 Volunteers from Hull were equipped with 25 complete sets of uniforms and equipment. With the exception of the Brodie shells everything else was brand new or unissued. It was quite a sight to see 25 sets of freshly made 1914 leather equipment in the Q Store before it was issued, let alone 25 complete sets of uniform complete with the correct numbers of shirts, drawers and socks.

We managed to source 25 Brodie shrapnel helmets, some with good liners, and American shells to make up the last few. As everything else was brand new the helmets needed to look straight from the factory too so all were completely refurbished with new liners and new pigskin chinstraps like the originals. We even had the correct buckles cast (see pic). Most had the second pattern liners but a few early shells were lined with the early ones with two-piece chinstraps. All of them were repainted the same colour green.

If you have a need to portray men wearing kit which has been freshly issued it needs to look new. In 'General Jack's Diary' J.L.Jack describes his battalion of Cameronians wearing freshly polished green helmets in the Line which caused casualties. They all smeared them in mud to stop the light shining on them and attracting snipers but it all had to be scraped off and the helmets polished again as soon as they returned from the Line. No one ever wore something which looked like a relic 90 years ago.

Mind you, since 2001 our hemets have been used literally hundreds of times for film, TV and thetare work and all now look well worn in.

Whether it is "acceptable" to repaint or re-liner an old helmet is up to you. If you really want to buy an expensive helmet and wipe out its value by "restoring" it, that's entirely up to you! Common sense says that battered old shells with little or no paint remaining are the best ones to revamp with new liners and straps. Hessian covers are an option but they are rarely seen in the early stages of the Somme fighting and they seem to start disappearing again in 1918.

In the end, if you pay for it, it's your tin hat to do with as you see fit...

.

[findabetterole]

Whether it is "acceptable" to repaint or re-liner an old helmet is up to you. If you really want to buy an expensive helmet and wipe out its value by "restoring" it, that's entirely up to you! Common sense says that battered old shells with little or no paint remaining are the best ones to revamp with new liners and straps. Hessian covers are an option but they are rarely seen in the early stages of the Somme fighting and they seem to start disappearing again in 1918.

In the end, if you pay for it, it's your tin hat to do with as you see fit...

.

Chief-Chum...

You make some very good and extremely valid points. I personaly would never destroy a fully equiped Brodie, for that would also be destroying a bonafide peace of history in its own right. I only revamp Brodie shells with little or no original liner/chinstrap attached. My own personal field use Brodie is a fully functional and 100% complete original. After several coats of leather food oil (my terminology here, not the brand name) for both the chinstrap and liner, its quite acceptable for use and extremely comfortable to wear. Under rim stamping is: FS 108. I found this Brodie here in California at a gun-show in Fresno during April last year, for which I paid $15.00... thats about 6.50.GBP in todays exchange rate.

I really do miss being with dedicated chaps/btns like yourselves, but things are slowly progressing here. My own btn: 2nd Lancashire Fusiliers has now passed the initial stages, and is a dedicated GWHS recognised unit.

If any members from the old country are seeking original British Brodies, I will be more than happy to help in that respect, due to both the British and US examples being very easy to find here. However, prices are rising. The main killer for you chaps in the old country is the postal cost which, depending upon the method used, can be nearly as much as the item being posted.

That being said... ones individual standards should start out and remain high in referance to historical authenticity. But, to quote yourself: "In the end, if you pay for it, it's your tin hat to do with as you see fit..." I fully agree, so long as historical accuracy/authenticity is not bypassed.

Seph

[HVD5677]

Seph: Can you give any guidance on specific colors of modern paint you use in restoring these helmets ? Thanks

Chief-Chum...

You make some very good and extremely valid points. I personaly would never destroy a fully equiped Brodie, for that would also be destroying a bonafide peace of history in its own right. I only revamp Brodie shells with little or no original liner/chinstrap attached. My own personal field use Brodie is a fully functional and 100% complete original. After several coats of leather food oil (my terminology here, not the brand name) for both the chinstrap and liner, its quite acceptable for use and extremely comfortable to wear. Under rim stamping is: FS 108. I found this Brodie here in California at a gun-show in Fresno during April last year, for which I paid $15.00... thats about 6.50.GBP in todays exchange rate.

I really do miss being with dedicated chaps/btns like yourselves, but things are slowly progressing here. My own btn: 2nd Lancashire Fusiliers has now passed the initial stages, and is a dedicated GWHS recognised unit.

If any members from the old country are seeking original British Brodies, I will be more than happy to help in that respect, due to both the British and US examples being very easy to find here. However, prices are rising. The main killer for you chaps in the old country is the postal cost which, depending upon the method used, can be nearly as much as the item being posted.

That being said... ones individual standards should start out and remain high in referance to historical authenticity. But, to quote yourself: "In the end, if you pay for it, it's your tin hat to do with as you see fit..." I fully agree, so long as historical accuracy/authenticity is not bypassed.

Seph

[Wardog]

Wonder also what paint Taff would recomend for repainting in the UK. Regards, Paul.