What did British Snipers use?

[MikB]

I recently had the opportunity to shoot a sniper's SMLE with the telescopic sight on the left side.

The old boy who owned it said the put it in our right shoulder and sight with our left eye.

It worked OK, but was that how it was meant to be done?

Philsr

I very much doubt it. I've had a play with one of these in my youth and found it OK to look through with the right eye when held on the right shoulder. But the SMLE's reasonably tolerant of crosseyed shooters - it's one rifle I can fire from the left shoulder while sighting with my right eye, so your method might well work - though it would be a long way from ideal for a 'normal' right-handed, right-eyed shooter.

The real problem according to H-P was that, with the scope being offset from the centreline, all you could see when trying to shoot through the standard armoured loophole was iron...

Regards,

MikB

[west coast]

in salonica.

can anyone identfy the regt in picture. mike. perth.

[centurion]

I seen an account of Australian snipers that states that men who were members of rifle clubs prior to enlistment and recognised as crack shots were permitted to bring and use their own 'private' rifle.

[MikB]

Don't think much of those blokes' gun safety! I suppose where they were, warnings about stuff like that would be like wagging your finger about the risks of smoking or suchlike.

What's the long tubular casing beside the corp with the scoped SMLE in the foreground? It looks too long to be the case for his scope sight, and it certainly isn't a GS telescope. Were other telescope types - perhaps the FA models - ever recorded as issued to units like this?

Regards,

MikB

[Sniper]

Don't think much of those blokes' gun safety! I suppose where they were, warnings about stuff like that would be like wagging your finger about the risks of smoking or suchlike.

What's the long tubular casing beside the corp with the scoped SMLE in the foreground? It looks too long to be the case for his scope sight, and it certainly isn't a GS telescope. Were other telescope types - perhaps the FA models - ever recorded as issued to units like this?

Regards,

MikB

The case on the Corporal's hip is the tubular leather case for the Periscopic Prism T/S that the rifle is fitted with. TonyE is, as always, correct that the only issue sniper rifle available to the British army during 1914-1918 was the Mk III or Mk III*, with either the Periscopic Prism or Aldis T/S, although there were many other telescopic sights fitted in the early part of the war including Evans, Goerz, and Winchester. Hesketh-Prichard refers to the fifteen different types that were issued and that he and his Armourer-Sergeant had to be familiar with and able to correct and zero all of these.

The T/S replaced the optical sights that were the first sniper's aid, such as the Lattey, Neill and Martin sights. All of these were similar, being Galilean telescopes, or two lenses mounted around the foresight and the rear sight (in the case of the Lattey) or on the receiver in the case of the Neill and the Martin sights.

The Model 1918 scope that was fitted to the Pattern 14, was based on a lightweight Hensoldt scope taken in a trench raid. The rifle was sent to England where it was evaluated by Colonel Richardson and Thomas Fremantle. The claw mounts were reproduced and fitted with an Aldis sight, but this proved unsatisfactory and the Ministry of Munitions who were by this time running the Periscopic Prism factory designed and built the Model 1918 in less than eight months. There is anecdotal evidence that some units were received at the Front prior to the Armistice, but it is generally accepted that they were not issued until after the war ended.

The Ross was fitted with the Warner & Swasey sight and proved to be a good sniping rifle, especially after the forestock was cut down. The Canadian infantry were very unhappy with their Ross Mk III as a general issue weapon and took every opportunity to acquire an SMLE from their fallen comrades. Despite the problems with Ross which had been comon knowledge from well before the war, the Second Contingent were stlll sent to France equpped with the Ross. It was only after a direct order had been issued by The Commander-in-Chief that the Canadians were able to officially hand in their Rosses and receive the SMLE instead.

The original Periscopic Prism sight is offset and, if you are broad shouldered, it is possible to fire from the right shoulder and use the right eye to sight with, but using the left eye, although "incorrect" according to Hesketh-Prichard, does work quite well.

The P14/ Model 1918 unit performs much better, although the previous comment about short range/ long range applies even with the Telescopic sights.

It was not only the Australians who took their own rifles to war. John Tippins, Arthur Fulton and many other English targhet shooters took their own regulated rifles with them and mant took their target sights to be fitted to issue weapons.

regards,

Sniper

[dek]

An excellent book, "A Rifleman Went To War" by Herbert W. McBride, "being a narrative of the author's experiences and observations while with the Canadian Corps in France and Belgium, September 1915-April 1917. With particular emphasis upon the use of the military rifle in sniping, its place in modern armament, and the work of the individual soldier."

1987 by Lancer Militaria originally published by Small-Arms Technical Publishing Co., 1935

printed in the United States of America, Library of Congress Catalog Card NUmber 87-81974

ISBN 0-935856-01-3

Lancer Militaria

P. O. Box 886

Mt. Ida, AR 71957

USA

I originally read the above in the 1970's when I was an active high-power rifle competitor and member of a military rifle team. I subsequently obtained another copy sometime in the 90's and have referred to it several times since.

Dennis

[tjec]

WJJ_1r.pdf

This and the following 2 posts have pdf files of 3 pages from the W J Jeffery catalogue for the 1912/13 season, showing a

"regulation .303 target rifle for the Volunteer Forces". They also show the Jeffery telescopic sight and how to zero it in.

Regards,

Norman

[tjec]

WJJ_2r.pdf

W J Jeffery second page.

[tjec]

WJJ_3r.pdf

W J Jeffery third page

[yellow]

British officers did take their own rifles to the front; Hesketh-Prichard comments on how big game rifles were excellent for "loop hole busting".

German telescopic sights were also used on British rifles which created a logistical nightmare it was not until later in the war that certain models of scope became dominent such as those manufactured by the Periscopic Prism Company of Kentish Town London.

One of my own personal favourite scopes are the examples produced in America for the British Government. Those manufactured by Winchester Repeating Arms Company which were attached to the SMLE on mounts manufactured by the Whitehead brothers.

Here are some numbers for you:

- The periscopic Prism Company converted 4830 rifles during WW1.

- The Aldis Brothers converted 3196 rifles during WW1.

In 1921 the Small Arms Committee in 1921 decided that all optically sighted SMLE's were to be stripped down at Weedon.

I`d like to say all this research was my own, but sadly it isnt, see Issue 55 of the Armourer.

[D. Sims]

to add to the comments regarding the use of big game sniping, here are 2 entries from the 2nd Bn Worcestershire War Diary.

27th January 1916. The Kaisers Birthday. Our artillery very active, also our snipers, and did a lot of execution, knocking out several snipers posts with an Elephant gun.

21st February 1916, At 1045hrs the enemy fired some large trench mortars into our centre and right Company's and towards Cabbage Patch Redoubt. Our snipers were active and caused the enemy much annoyance. One German was hit near a brickstack and our elephant gun made a large hole in an iron truck from which a sniper was located. It may have accounted for the sniper as he ceased firing.

[TonyE]

I do not know who wrote the article in "The Armourer" that you quoted, but all this research and a lot more can be found in Ian Skennerton's book "The British Sniper".

Full details of the official use of express rifles, or "elephant guns" is in Part 3 of my British Secondary Small Arms series, including numbers purchased and the plans to convert stored Pattern 13 rifles to .470 Nitro express calibre.

Here is a picture of the express rifle cartridges used with a .303" round for comparison.

1 .303 Mark VII Ball

2 .500 nitro 3"

3 .500 nitro 3 1/4"

4 .450 Nitro 3 1/4"

5 .450 No.2 Nitro

6 .475 No.2 Nitro

7 .475 No.2 Jeffrey Nitro

Regards

TonyE

[Heid the Ba]

Blimey, getting hit by any of those would spoil your whole afternoon.