Graves Moved in Ypres Town Cemetery

[Paul Reed]

While out following the 1914 battlefields with several friends last week we were somewhat surprised, and a little shocked, to see that a large number of graves have been moved in Ypres Town Cemetery. These are all, it seems, the graves of former CWGC workers moved from one of the CWGC/Civilian plots into the main military cemetery.

However, while some have been moved - others remain.

Would be greatful for any local news or input from Terry Denham.

Below the graves now moved; CWGC still working on them, as you will see.

[Paul Reed]

Below, a photo of the area where the graves have been moved from.

[Paul Reed]

Another of the same area.

[Terry Denham]

Paul

I don't have the story on this one. I will find out the official reason on Monday.

[Bert Heyvaert]

I heard rumours about this, and now it seems it has finally happened.

I think the relatives of the people buried in the CWGC-plot had the opportunity to leave the remains where they were, if they objected to removal. But off course, most of them will not have been easy to find.

In a way, I think the area where the are lying now looks a lot nicer and does better respect to their lifetime-work and commitment.

As a historian, however, I deeply regret it. The British civilian plot was still more or less like it was during the 1930's and the 1950's. It has organicly grown and its lay-out was interesting for those interested in the Ypres British colony. Only the graves of the CWGC workers have been moved, but normal graves of British citizens that were not CWGC workers are still there.

The unity of the Ypres British civilian burial plot has been torn apart. I hope they still have records of who was where before they moved them.

regards,

Bert.

p.s. Paul, next time you're there, would you mind having a look for me if Richard Collick and Leo Norbury Murphy ( both under CWGC-staff headstones) have been moved as well?

[Tom Morgan]

I agree with Bert that the original burial plot was historically interesting in its own right. Just to show what it used to look like, here's a picture taken from almost the same viewpoint as Paul's. This is how it looked in 2001.

Tom

[Jacky Platteeuw]

This was already in progress in November 2003 as I went to pay respect to my parents grave.

Just for the record. My father in law died in 1990 and was buried very near the spot of the plot in question. He has been removed already after a few years of burial. I maybe wrong about this but at the time he was removed the rule was that any grave could be 'cleared' after 5 years. In the meantime this has become 15 years. The plot he was buried in is already full again. Maybe the explanation is to be found in the lack of burial grounds. Naturally it doesn't justify it.

Jacky

[aliecoco]

Hi,

I have been reading and looking at the pictures of this thread with interest, as I don't think I have visited this cemetery. I don't know much about the CWGC workers and their headstones, I don't recall ever seeing one but they look very similar to the soldiers. I understand that all of the soldiers graves must face the Cross of Sacrifice, is that why they are turned the other way originally? Bert and Tom have mentioned the interesting layout and I wondered what exactly was mean't.

Alie.

[john w.]

Is this the thin edge of the wedge?

There must be a reason, but reading the thread it seems a shame that it has been done at all....

John

[Paul Reed]

I have been reading and looking at the pictures of this thread with interest, as I don't think I have visited this cemetery. I don't know much about the CWGC workers and their headstones, I don't recall ever seeing one but they look very similar to the soldiers. I understand that all of the soldiers graves must face the Cross of Sacrifice, is that why they are turned the other way originally? Bert and Tom have mentioned the interesting layout and I wondered what exactly was mean't.

It's not true that all graves must face the cross; in many (most?) cemeteries that is far from the case.

The graves of IWGC/CWGC workers are not uncommon; they had the right to be buried in a CWGC cemetery if they had worked for the Commission - not that many chose/choose to. I am sure Terry will be able to tell us how many cemeteries have them in; I can think of a dozen or more.

[Paul Reed]

Thanks for all the comments above - and thanks for posting the photo Tom. I couldn't find my own one for comparison; it's on disk somewhere.

It will be interesting to see what Terry comes up with, but personally like Bert, I am sad to see this original plot of IWGC/CWGC graves go. It includes an old veteran I used to know and see in Ypres, Billy Dunn. He used to be in St Georges every time I used to go in and he was always willing to talk about his time on Kemmel Hill. His was one of the graves moved.

[Terry Denham]

Paul

Info as requested.

These are the cemeteries containing CWGC staff graves (number of graves in brackets - includes a few dependents of staff).

These are not war graves but are classified as 'Non-World War Graves (Staff)' in the CWGC system. These are the only staff graves in CWGC care.

BELGIUM

- Brussels Town Cemetery (4) (includes Douglas Bader's father, Frederick)

- Hotton War Cemetery (1)

- Lijssenthoek Military Cemetery (1)

- Mons Communal Cemetery (1)

- Schoonselhof Cemetery (1)

- Ypres Town Cemetery (1)

- Ypres Town Cemetery Extension (17)

CYPRUS

- Nicosia War Cemetery (1)

EGYPT

- Cairo New British Protestant Cemetery (3)

FRANCE

- Albert Communal Cemetery Extension (1)

- Le Bizet Cemetery (1)

- Longuenesse (St Omer) Souvenir Cemetery (32)

- Manancourt (Etricourt) Communal Cemetery (4)

- Merville Communal Cemetery (1)

- Terlincthun British Cemetery (1)

GERMANY

- Cologne Southern Cemetery (4)

- Hamburg Cemetery (1)

GREECE

- Mikra British Cemetery (1)

ITALY

- Dueville Communal Cemetery Extension (1)

- Rome War Cemetery (3)

NETHERLANDS

- Arnhem (Oosterbeek) War Cemetery (3) (includes one Herbert Denham)

- Groesbeek Canadian War Cemetery (1)

- Mierlo War Cemetery (1)

POLAND

- Krakow Rakowicki Cemetery (2)

UNITED KINGDOM

- Amberley Church Cemetery, Glos (1) (Sir Fabian Ware - Founder of CWGC)

- Harrogate (Stonefall) Cemetery, Yorks (1)

[Bert Heyvaert]

Alie,

What is intersting about a cemetery, is that normally it grows organicly. Walking through such a place is like walking through the town itself in the past. I remember one of my Professors in Leuven telling us that, before he visited a city he always tried to visit the cemetery first.

With the removal of some of the headstones, this effect was destroyed.

The special thing about the British plot in the Ypres town cemetery, is that there actually was one, and that the Britons were not buried at random somewhere in the graveyard where there was place at the moment of their dead

The British citizens of Ypres were given a special place, as they occupied a special place in the city.

I wondered if the city couldn't have done something special with it... maybe put a little noticeboard with some info there for visitors and put it on the touristical map.

I bet many people would have visited it, if they would only have known that it was there... Especially because there are some interesting caracters buried there. Fred Fisher who was mutilated in the face, captured at Mons and married the Belgian nurse who treated him, Dick Collick who thought the Menin Gate buglers how to play the last post, Leo Murphy who won the medaille militaire and croix de guerre for evacuating the town of Bethune...

regards,

Bert.

[Paul Reed]

Thanks for that list Terry.

There is also one in Courcelette communal cemetery; it has a CWGC style headstone and is of a IWGC worker who died in the village in the 1930s. It had been 'lost' until I found it some years ago, and it is now maintained by the head of the Thiepval Group of cemeteries. Details are in my Courcelette book.

[Terry Denham]

Paul

There is no such grave recorded in CWGC's database. In fact, Courcelette Communal Cemetery does not appear in their list of over 24000 locations either.

Can you give me the details - looking through 'Courcelette' now but can't find the reference. DON'T BOTHER. Just found it!

Remember, that it may not be officially in CWGC care. Also do you have a pic of the headstone as it should not be a war grave style stone - probably one of the slightly different non-world war styles. There must be many ex-CWGC staff who are not in their care for various reasons.

[paul guthrie]

I have seen the one in COurceletter cemetery & was going to mention it, there's another not mentioned so somehow must not be official near Hebuterne.

[Paul Reed]

Also do you have a pic of the headstone as it should not be a war grave style stone - probably one of the slightly different non-world war styles. There must be many ex-CWGC staff who are not in their care for various reasons.

Will photograph it and post here when I have a spare moment next week.

[Terry Denham]

Paul

The Courcelette staff grave is not in CWGC care and hence it does not appear in their lists. Apparently there are a number of these staff graves which they do not look after officially as the n-o-k did not request burial in a CWGC plot.

However, I am told that when local staff know of such a grave, they keep an unofficial eye on it as caring colleagues. This matches what you said in your post.

[Terry Denham]

The story back from CWGC is not very clear but the graves so moved are private, non-war graves and so CWGC did not instigate the move.

It seems that the move was made as there are plans, or at least suggested plans, by the local authorities to reorganise the public cemetery.

[Terry Denham]

Just had it confirmed from the Belgian authorities that they plan to re-use a section of the cemetery for new burials for the town of Ieper - hence the moved graves.

[Paul Reed]

Thanks for that update, Terry.

[Terry Denham]

I forgot to say above that the graves which remained in situ and were not moved were all private ones for which n-o-k could not be traced to obtain permission.