Davben Posted 14 February , 2004 Share Posted 14 February , 2004 Hi, I`m unsure about the where abouts of the 139th brigade during 23/12/15 as the 137th, and 138th brigades were ordered to Egypt and ALL arrived there around 13/1/16, but where did the 139th go , did they stay in france? , my info does`nt mention the 139th going with them, can some offer a clue or an answer . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brindlerp Posted 14 February , 2004 Share Posted 14 February , 2004 Interesting information on the Sherwood Forester's (46th Division - 139 Brigade, and 59th Division - 178 Brigade) on these sites: http://www.wfrmuseum.org.uk/sf_history.htm#19141918 and http://freespace.virgin.net/stephen.mee/ Check out the information on the mother site, mention is made of the S.F. battalions going to Egypt, them immediately being sent back. The attached Official History map has 46th Division above 56th Division in the attack at Gommecourt on 1st July 1916. regards Richard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davben Posted 15 February , 2004 Author Share Posted 15 February , 2004 Richard, can`t thankyou enough for this info about the sherwoods and that map, well, I blew it up, sorry[zoomed ] it up and then could see the different coys movements , just awesome , thankyou. kind regards Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 21 February , 2004 Share Posted 21 February , 2004 Yes, they stayed in France. Summary from the War Diary of the 1/7th Sherwood Foresters, 139 Brigade, 46 Division: 1/12/15 In billets at Vielle Chapelle. Working Parties to RE. 2/12/15 - 4/12/15 In trenches, Cresecent to Copse Street 5/12/15 March to Robecq 6/12/15 - 18/12/15 In billets at Robecq 19/12/15 - 26/12/15 In billets at Boeseghem 27/12/15 - 9/1/16 In billets at Isbergues 10/1/16 - 26/1/16 The battalion to Marseilles and spend time being vaccinated. 21 Officers embark for Egypt 21/1/16 but are recalled before the ship sets sail. On the 26th a train takes the battalion back north to Pont Remy. Hope this helps. Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinWills Posted 21 February , 2004 Share Posted 21 February , 2004 Interestingly Andrews notes (from the war diary) do not not quite tally with the unit history, which is quite precise (and presumably accurate) on a number of facts. 27/12/15 - 9/1/16 In billets at Isbergues 10/1/16 - 26/1/16 The battalion to Marseilles and spend time being vaccinated. 21 Officers embark for Egypt 21/1/16 but are recalled before the ship sets sail. On the 26th a train takes the battalion back north to Pont Remy. Paraphrasing: On Jan 6th the battalion were ordered to entrain at Berguette station on the 7th. They entrained at Berguette at 10.21 a.m. and proceeded via Bethune to Abbeville (40 minute stop), then on January 8th St Georges (70 min stop); Montereau (45 min stop), Dijon, Macon (1 Hour stop), then on January 9th Valence, Lyons, Pierrelatte (1 hour stop) arriving and detraining at Marseilles at 1 a.m. on 10th Jan where they proceeded to Parc Borely where finding the tenta allocated to the battalion proved a problem - however all were settled in by 3 a.m. They rose at daybreak. Those not required for duties were allowed to go into Marseilles as long as they returned to camp before 9.30 p.m. No one was found missing at "tattoo report" and the privelege continued for the whole of their time in Marseilles. On the 10th D coy. represented the British at the funeral of a French Army commandant. They were moved later that day to Chateau Mussot where they stayed for the rest of their time in Marseilles. It was on 19th that they were informed that they were to go to Egypt embarking on 26th but due to shortage of officers cabin accommodation 21 officers were to sail with the 5th Leicesters on HMT Adania (Late of Cunard Line and apparently a floating palace). The officers embarked on 21st whilst the rest of the battalion suffering from the effects of vaccination went on a route march remembered for the beauty of the countryside through which they passed. On return they found the 21 officers back in camp. The "21" had embarked, been allocated "most luxurious cabins" and had just finished lunch when a telegram arrived advising that orders for the 46th Division to proceed to Egypt were cancelled. Apparently 6 of the 12 battalions did sail for Egypt. On 24th orders came through for them to entrain at Marseilles at midnight on Jan 25th. at the Gare D'Arenc. This was done, though C company had to return to camp as there was not enough space on the train. The next hour was spent cleaning out the carriages which had not been cleaned out following the conveyance of horses. The result was not wholly satisfactory and no clean straw was obtainable. They steamed out of Marseilles at 1 a.m. and travelled via Valence, Lyons, Macon, Montereau, Villeneuve, St George's, Versaille, Amiens reaching Pont Remy at 12.30 a.m. on 28th having spent 3 days on the train. At 1.15 they set of to march to Domquer, 12 miles distant, but the Fench guide took a wrong turning (and when it was queried several times both then and en route later, denied it untill the signposts indicated they were approaching Abbeville) reaching the edge of Abbeville after a 13 mile march. They slept on the roadside till daybreak, breakfasted and set off at 9.30 a.m. to march the further 12 miles to Domquer from Abbeville, arriving at 3.30 p.m. They were billeted there till Feb 9th. I quite imagine that much of this time was spent passing comment on French Guides! The six battalions who had not sailed were all billeted in area awaiting the return of those who had sailed. I hope this throws some interesting and entertaining light of their exploits during this period! Regards, Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 21 February , 2004 Share Posted 21 February , 2004 Martin, Some interesting discrepancies. Which unit history are you paraphrasing - the Robin Hoods? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate Wills Posted 22 February , 2004 Share Posted 22 February , 2004 That's right - The Sherwood Foresters in the Great War; The Robin Hoods - 1/7; 2/7 and 3/7 bttns; pub. Bell 1921. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brindlerp Posted 22 February , 2004 Share Posted 22 February , 2004 Interestingly Andrews notes (from the war diary) do not not quite tally with the unit history, which is quite precise (and presumably accurate) on a number of facts. 27/12/15 - 9/1/16 In billets at Isbergues 10/1/16 - 26/1/16 The battalion to Marseilles and spend time being vaccinated. 21 Officers embark for Egypt 21/1/16 but are recalled before the ship sets sail. On the 26th a train takes the battalion back north to Pont Remy. Paraphrasing: On Jan 6th the battalion were ordered to entrain at Berguette station on the 7th. They entrained at Berguette at 10.21 a.m. and proceeded via Bethune to Abbeville (40 minute stop), then on January 8th St Georges (70 min stop); Montereau (45 min stop), Dijon, Macon (1 Hour stop), then on January 9th Valence, Lyons, Pierrelatte (1 hour stop) arriving and detraining at Marseilles at 1 a.m. on 10th Jan where they proceeded to Parc Borely where finding the tenta allocated to the battalion proved a problem - however all were settled in by 3 a.m. They rose at daybreak. Those not required for duties were allowed to go into Marseilles as long as they returned to camp before 9.30 p.m. No one was found missing at "tattoo report" and the privelege continued for the whole of their time in Marseilles. On the 10th D coy. represented the British at the funeral of a French Army commandant. They were moved later that day to Chateau Mussot where they stayed for the rest of their time in Marseilles. It was on 19th that they were informed that they were to go to Egypt embarking on 26th but due to shortage of officers cabin accommodation 21 officers were to sail with the 5th Leicesters on HMT Adania (Late of Cunard Line and apparently a floating palace). The officers embarked on 21st whilst the rest of the battalion suffering from the effects of vaccination went on a route march remembered for the beauty of the countryside through which they passed. On return they found the 21 officers back in camp. The "21" had embarked, been allocated "most luxurious cabins" and had just finished lunch when a telegram arrived advising that orders for the 46th Division to proceed to Egypt were cancelled. Apparently 6 of the 12 battalions did sail for Egypt. On 24th orders came through for them to entrain at Marseilles at midnight on Jan 25th. at the Gare D'Arenc. This was done, though C company had to return to camp as there was not enough space on the train. The next hour was spent cleaning out the carriages which had not been cleaned out following the conveyance of horses. The result was not wholly satisfactory and no clean straw was obtainable. They steamed out of Marseilles at 1 a.m. and travelled via Valence, Lyons, Macon, Montereau, Villeneuve, St George's, Versaille, Amiens reaching Pont Remy at 12.30 a.m. on 28th having spent 3 days on the train. At 1.15 they set of to march to Domquer, 12 miles distant, but the Fench guide took a wrong turning (and when it was queried several times both then and en route later, denied it untill the signposts indicated they were approaching Abbeville) reaching the edge of Abbeville after a 13 mile march. They slept on the roadside till daybreak, breakfasted and set off at 9.30 a.m. to march the further 12 miles to Domquer from Abbeville, arriving at 3.30 p.m. They were billeted there till Feb 9th. I quite imagine that much of this time was spent passing comment on French Guides! The six battalions who had not sailed were all billeted in area awaiting the return of those who had sailed. I hope this throws some interesting and entertaining light of their exploits during this period! Regards, Martin What was on the lunch menu and what was used to wash it down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 22 February , 2004 Share Posted 22 February , 2004 The answer to that will probably be in Appendix F, part 16. It's in the same section as that which explains that Corporal Sutton brushed his teeth with his left hand on the morning of 9th January, rather than his right which was usual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 22 February , 2004 Share Posted 22 February , 2004 Kate / Martin (Iasked Martin, Kate answered - sounds a bit like my marraige arrangements), thanks. I'll have to look at the Robin Hood's history again and look out for any more irregularities. The history was compiled by a 'committee' of Officers so, as you (Martin) say it should be reliable, though I would be inclined to believe the War Diary when discrepancies occur. After all it was an immediate response to the days events without the blurring of the passage of time. Also all books, no matter how well intentioned, are designed for an audience which could, in certain circumstances, alter the way events are recorded / portrayed. In this particular case I would doubt that this latter factor is a relevant point (why skew the facts in this instance - no point?). I wonder if others have discovered contradictions between Official Histories and War Diaries and, if so, which should we regard as more accurate? Good thread this! However I'm not sure whether we've helped the original questioner or thrown a whole new wall in the way of their research!! Ho hum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinWills Posted 22 February , 2004 Share Posted 22 February , 2004 Andrew, I did think that the note that one train departed at 10.21 seemed to indicate a thoroughness with factual accuracy, this and things like details of the stops and their length seemed to me to imply use of a diary at the time. The dates and times also allow for the 3 days "en route" by train which your war diary extracts don't draw out. By the way, Corporal Sutton was using his left hand that morning as he was newly promoted and, not being a dab hand at sewing, had a sore right hand after repeatedly stabbing himself with the needle (borrowed from the medics) he used to sew his new stripe on. Apparently he used a suture from the medics to use as thread but no-one remembered to record what gauge was used! The Robin Hoods is a good example of a history that is chatty and informative. I must admit I really enjoy reading histories like that because it begins to bring these things to life and the detail is something that does not need to be "doctored" for official reasons. I am sure we have provided some useful sources to start thinking around the original question - and provided some entertainment on the way. Martin PS Sorry, but don't have the wine list and menu to hand, but I can picture 21 very happy officers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 22 February , 2004 Share Posted 22 February , 2004 "Apparently he used a suture from the medics to us as thread but no-one remembered to record what gauge was used!" See. I said it was unreliable!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinWills Posted 22 February , 2004 Share Posted 22 February , 2004 Presumably you can confirm the gauge of suture from the war diary? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 22 February , 2004 Share Posted 22 February , 2004 Touche! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davben Posted 23 February , 2004 Author Share Posted 23 February , 2004 Good effort chaps ! and from my limited photocopies I see the 1/5, 1/6, 1/7, and 1/8th were all attached from march 1915 to 1918 ?, which throws my theory of the above mentioned 139th going to egypt, obviously not. the 1/6th regiment is the one i`m interested in particular , and as I see it were only involved in one battle , 1st july -Gommecourt and from there on involved in salvage work in west of Landrecies, until january 1919 when the division then moved to the Le Cateau area and here demobilisation began. The thing that blew my thoery , was my grandfather later transferring to the 12st Lancers, which was during this time frame but not knowing who or what they were attached to , there`s not much mention about the 21st Lancers,or should I say postings etc ,etc. I was thinking maybe the Lancers went to Egypt or India only. Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 23 February , 2004 Share Posted 23 February , 2004 Dave, Sorry, but I suspect a typo. 12th or 21st Lancers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davben Posted 24 February , 2004 Author Share Posted 24 February , 2004 Andrew, dead right , sorry ! 21st Lancers it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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