STIMSON BROTHERS IN HONOURABLE ARTILLERY CO.

[verdun]

Hi All,

Can anyone provide ANY information on three brothers:

1. 850 Pte. Montague Adolph STIMSON (HAC & East Surreys)

2. 3141 Pte. Douglas Bernard STIMSON (HAC & Worcs Regt.

3. S/11997 Rifleman Eric Malcolm STIMSON (9th Bn. Rifle Bde.)

I have the MICs for all three, showing that Montague and Douglas both served in the HAC at the start of their military service. Montague was later commissioned into 10/East Surreys and was killed on the Somme on 30/6/16, whilst attached to the 8th battalion as 2/Lt. His MIC indicates that he is entitled to a 1914 star and notes "Disembarkation Returns Rouen 9. 14"

QUESTIONS:

1. Does this mean he went to France with the BEF at the outbreak of hostilities, whilst in the HAC?

2. Does anyone know when he was commissioned and when he became attached to the 8/East Surreys?

His brother Douglas entered a "theatre of war" (France) on 18/8/15. He was later commissioned into the Worc. Regt. on 12/5/17. He survived the war. His trio are all marked to his rank as Pte in the HAC.

QUESTIONS:

1. Does this mean he did not return to active service after commissioning?

2. He also served in WW2, but does anyone know when he died?

A third brother Eric Malcolm died of wounds on 24/8/15, aged just 17. His MIC indicates that he arrived in France on 30/6/15. If anyone has access to the battalion war diary of the 9/Rifle Bde, I would love to know more about his two months on active service, presumably focusing on actions at Hooge in the Salient?

I know that the family come from Richmond, Surrey and obviously have looked them up in 'Soldiers Died' and on the CWGC website, but ANY other info would be gratefully received. Many thanks,

Peter

[stiletto_33853]

Peter,

Re Eric Malcolm, he would have been a re-inforcement for the 9th as they arrived overseas in May 1915. I have the 9th Rifle Brigade's War Diary so will have a check for you, although as he died of wounds it might be difficult to track him down. The 9th RB at the time of the Hooge flamethrower attack were at 'The Culvert' but I will check through.

Andy

[verdun]

Peter,

Re Eric Malcolm, he would have been a re-inforcement for the 9th as they arrived overseas in May 1915. I have the 9th Rifle Brigade's War Diary so will have a check for you, although as he died of wounds it might be difficult to track him down. The 9th RB at the time of the Hooge flamethrower attack were at 'The Culvert' but I will check through.

Andy

Thanks Andy. Am most appreciative of your attention and prompt reply. I eagerly await any more info, Peter

[sotonmate]

Peter

You will be delighted to know that there are two Officer Files at Kew for your two Officer subjects, You will also be pleased that (probably) their soldier papers are with the Officer papers !

2 Lt M A STIMSONs file is WO339/33491,and (possibly),

a file marked D STIMSON, WO339/88190,realates to D B STIMSON.

Sotonmate

[stiletto_33853]

Peter,

E-mail me your e-mail address and I will send you the diary for the period you are looking for.

Andy

[rflory]

Montague Adolph Stimson

Admitted to the HAC on 5 Aug 14

Went overseas with the 1st Bn, HAC on 18 Sep 14

Commissioned as 2nd Lieut, 9th Bn, E Surrey Regt

KIA on 30 Sep 16 while attached to the 8th Bn, E Surrey Regt.

Source: The Honourable Artillery Company in the Great War.

D B Stimson

Admitted to the HAC in 1914

Member of the 2nd Bn, HAC

His address in 1925 was "Alongside", Aldenham Avenue, Radlett, Herts

2nd Lieut, Reg Army Emerg. Commission, Intelligence Corps, 17 Sep 40

War Substantive Captain, Intelligence Corps, 6 Aug 41

Temp. Major, Intelligence Corps, 26 Aug 41

His address in 1946 was Four Willows, Hythe-End, Wraybury and he is listed as Lt.-Col., Late Intelligence Corps

Sources: HAC Annual List of Members, etc., 1925-26; HAC Annual List of Members, etc., 1946; Quarterly Army List, October 1943.

Regards. Dick Flory

[verdun]

Many thanks for this very helpful information, Kind regards, Peter

Montague Adolph Stimson

Admitted to the HAC on 5 Aug 14

Went overseas with the 1st Bn, HAC on 18 Sep 14

Commissioned as 2nd Lieut, 9th Bn, E Surrey Regt

KIA on 30 Sep 16 while attached to the 8th Bn, E Surrey Regt.

Source: The Honourable Artillery Company in the Great War.

D B Stimson

Admitted to the HAC in 1914

Member of the 2nd Bn, HAC

His address in 1925 was "Alongside", Aldenham Avenue, Radlett, Herts

2nd Lieut, Reg Army Emerg. Commission, Intelligence Corps, 17 Sep 40

War Substantive Captain, Intelligence Corps, 6 Aug 41

Temp. Major, Intelligence Corps, 26 Aug 41

His address in 1946 was Four Willows, Hythe-End, Wraybury and he is listed as Lt.-Col., Late Intelligence Corps

Sources: HAC Annual List of Members, etc., 1925-26; HAC Annual List of Members, etc., 1946; Quarterly Army List, October 1943.

Regards. Dick Flory

[verdun]

Peter,

E-mail me your e-mail address and I will send you the diary for the period you are looking for.

Andy

Thanks Andy, please send to: enfield@mail2world.com I am really grateful for you assistance. Peter

[Esskay]

Interestingly a google search brought up the fact that the medals for all 3 brothers were sold at auction by Bossleys on 13th September 2006 - this is the lot description:

511 Great War Family Casualty three brothers groups.

Awarded to the Stimson family of Richmond Surrey. Comprising: 1914/15 Star, British War Medal and Victory Medal. Awarded to S-11997 Pte. Eric Malcolm Stimson 9th Battalion Rifle Brigade. VGC. .... British War Medal and Victory Medal awarded to Second Lieutenant Montague Adolph Stimson 10th Battalion East Surrey Regiment VGC. .... Group of five awarded to Lieutenant Douglas B. Stimson, formally in the ranks of the HAC later commissioned into the Worcestershire Regiment. Comprising: 1914/15 Star, British War Medal, Victory Medal “3141 Pte. HAC-Inf”, Defence Medal and War Medal. Medals loose. This group is accompanied by a Valcarter Camp 1914 Fob. .... Worcestershire Regiment Silver Gilt Cap badge and OSD Collar Badge, plus OCA lapel badge. Near VGC. (£200 - £300)

Pte. Eric Malcolm Stimson landed in France with his Battalion on the 30th June 1915. He died of Wounds on the 24th August 1915. Second Lieutenant Montague Adolph Stimson was Killed in Action whilst serving with the 10th Bn attached 8th Bn East Surrey Regiment. He originally Volunteered joining the HAC in August 1914. He is believed to be entitled to the 1914 Star having Landed in France during September 1914.

If I'm reading the results correctly - they sold for 320 Pounds.

The family seems to be quite elusive in the 1901 census - from other sources - it looks as if there father was a tailor. He married there mother - ELLEN BEATRICE PHILLIPS in 3rd qtr 1892 - St George Hanover Square London (vol 1a page 813)

They took a trip (1st class) to Australia on the P and O vessel Naldera - from London 3rd Nov 1922 to Sydney.

Douglas had married earlier that year - 17/8/1922 - Lydia - the widow of Thomas Alexander Stephens RE - http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...casualty=483585

Cheers

Sue

[verdun]

Peter

You will be delighted to know that there are two Officer Files at Kew for your two Officer subjects, You will also be pleased that (probably) their soldier papers are with the Officer papers !

2 Lt M A STIMSONs file is WO339/33491,and (possibly),

a file marked D STIMSON, WO339/88190,realates to D B STIMSON.

Sotonmate

Thanks again, This really gives me something to go on. It's GREAT news!!! Peter

[verdun]

Interestingly a google search brought up the fact that the medals for all 3 brothers were sold at auction by Bossleys on 13th September 2006 - this is the lot description:

511 Great War Family Casualty three brothers groups.

Awarded to the Stimson family of Richmond Surrey. Comprising: 1914/15 Star, British War Medal and Victory Medal. Awarded to S-11997 Pte. Eric Malcolm Stimson 9th Battalion Rifle Brigade. VGC. .... British War Medal and Victory Medal awarded to Second Lieutenant Montague Adolph Stimson 10th Battalion East Surrey Regiment VGC. .... Group of five awarded to Lieutenant Douglas B. Stimson, formally in the ranks of the HAC later commissioned into the Worcestershire Regiment. Comprising: 1914/15 Star, British War Medal, Victory Medal "3141 Pte. HAC-Inf", Defence Medal and War Medal. Medals loose. This group is accompanied by a Valcarter Camp 1914 Fob. .... Worcestershire Regiment Silver Gilt Cap badge and OSD Collar Badge, plus OCA lapel badge. Near VGC. (£200 - £300)

Pte. Eric Malcolm Stimson landed in France with his Battalion on the 30th June 1915. He died of Wounds on the 24th August 1915. Second Lieutenant Montague Adolph Stimson was Killed in Action whilst serving with the 10th Bn attached 8th Bn East Surrey Regiment. He originally Volunteered joining the HAC in August 1914. He is believed to be entitled to the 1914 Star having Landed in France during September 1914.

If I'm reading the results correctly - they sold for 320 Pounds.

The family seems to be quite elusive in the 1901 census - from other sources - it looks as if there father was a tailor. He married there mother - ELLEN BEATRICE PHILLIPS in 3rd qtr 1892 - St George Hanover Square London (vol 1a page 813)

They took a trip (1st class) to Australia on the P and O vessel Naldera - from London 3rd Nov 1922 to Sydney.

Douglas had married earlier that year - 17/8/1922 - Lydia - the widow of Thomas Alexander Stephens RE - http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...casualty=483585

Cheers

Sue

Thanks for your help, Sue. Any more info on Douglas after the war would be good or on Montague in the HAC. Regards, Peter

[stiletto_33853]

Peter,

July and August diary all sent to you, enjoy the reading.

Andy

[verdun]

D B Stimson

Admitted to the HAC in 1914

Member of the 2nd Bn, HAC

His address in 1925 was "Alongside", Aldenham Avenue, Radlett, Herts

2nd Lieut, Reg Army Emerg. Commission, Intelligence Corps, 17 Sep 40

War Substantive Captain, Intelligence Corps, 6 Aug 41

Temp. Major, Intelligence Corps, 26 Aug 41

His address in 1946 was Four Willows, Hythe-End, Wraybury and he is listed as Lt.-Col., Late Intelligence Corps

Sources: HAC Annual List of Members, etc., 1925-26; HAC Annual List of Members, etc., 1946; Quarterly Army List, October 1943.

Regards. Dick Flory

Hi again, Dick. Further to your helpful information re: DOUGLAS STIMSON, I have been thinking ... Douglas's MIC shows that he arrived in France on August 18th 1915, so he couldn't have been in the 2nd HAC at the time, because they didn't go to the Western Front until the following year.

Even more staggering ... The 1901 census shows that Douglas was born in 1898, the year before brother Eric, who died of wounds on August 24th 1915 (in 9/RB) aged just 17. This means that, even if Douglas had been born on January 1st 1898, he'd have only been 16 when he joined the HAC and therefore also well under 18 when he was sent to France in August 1915, just like Eric, who arrived on June 30th, according to his MIC.

Further thoughts, anyone? Regards, Peter

PS if anyone can supply the DOB for both Douglas and Eric that would be terrific!!!

[Esskay]

Not the actual dates of birth Peter - but the quarters (with place and reference) their births were registered in

Births Sep 1895

Stimson Montague Adolph

St. Geo. H. Sq.

Vol 1a Page 428

Births Dec 1896

Stimson Eric Malcolm

St. Geo. H. Sq.

1a 426

Births Dec 1897

Stimson Douglas Bernard

Richmond, S.

2a 412

Cheers

Sue

[verdun]

Hi Sue, Many thanks for your reply.

This is very interesting because the CWGC certificate clearly shows that Eric Malcolm Stimson was 17 when he died on August 24th 1915. See link below:

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...casualty=149641

According to your information, he would have had to have been a year older. What do you think? Is your source cast iron?

Meanwhile, brother Douglas was clearly underage when he enlisted. Eric must still have been, too. I wonder why he joined the RB rather than the HAC with his two brothers? Maybe, as the middle brother, he wanted to "do his own thing", whereas Douglas was more likely to follow his "big brother" Montague.

Peter

[Esskay]

Peter - the initial source was FreeBMD - but I have now double checked the copy of the original GRO page on Ancestry and he is certainly on it

I also found them on the 1901 census - finally - they are under STEENSON

They were at 47 Ennerdale Road, Richmond. The census was held on the night of 31st March - and the boys were shown as:

Montague - 5

Eric - 4

Douglas - 3

so a birthdate in Oct/Nov/Dec 1896 for Eric seems to be right - but no idea why he would put his age down lower than it actually was.

I'm probably completely wrong - but I've always considered the HAC to be a pretty 'posh' regiment - so I would have expected to find some sort of reference somewhere in The Times online to either the boys - who had certainly been given reasonably 'posh' names by their parents - or their father's (William Adolph) family. He was the son of Reuben - another tailor - and his wife Charlotte (both born around 1824/25 in Rutland). They named their other children Mary Elizabeth (OK pretty ordinary!) Clara Griselda and Josephine Drucilla - surely not your ordinary working class girls names in those days - but Douglas' wedding was all I could find

Hope it doesn't offend - and I'm probably completely wrong again - but I wonder if there was a touch of the "Hyacinth Bucket/Bouquet" in the family that maybe Eric didn't go along with???

Cheers

Sue

[Esskay]

I think I take it back - just looked at Eric's SDGW entry and it shows:

Supplementary Notes: FORMERLY 8365, LANCERS

Cheers

Sue

[verdun]

I think I take it back - just looked at Eric's SDGW entry and it shows:

Supplementary Notes: FORMERLY 8365, LANCERS

Cheers

Sue

Hi Sue, could you possibly e-mail a copy of this to me at:

enfield@mail2world.com

Many thanks if at all possible.

Could the CWGC entry be a mistake?

I had no trouble finding Eric on the 1901 census at:

http://www.1901census.nationalarchives.gov...i=person_search

but worked out that this could still fit in with an age of 17 in 1915. Now I'm realy confused!

Kind regards, Peter

[Esskay]

Email sent Peter

Cheers

Sue

[Guest Captain Vincent]

Hi Peter,

I hope you don't mind me adding to this post as I note it hasn't been active since 2008.

The reason for me writing is that I have served in the military as an officer in the Royal Engineers, recently leaving the army as a Captain.

I always used to speak with my late Grandfather about the war but I never looked in to the people we spoke about any further.

My grandmother recently told me about Monty, Eric and Douglas as well as Thomas Stephens who has been mentioned in this link. Douglas and Thomas's wife Lydia was my great grand mother - hence my interest.

I would be very interested in any information you have gained on Monty, Eric and Douglas as I am interested in knowing more about how my family have been involved in past conflict.

Kind regards,

Tom

[Guest exd605]

Hi Tom

I was interested and glad to see your post; Douglas and Lydia are also my Great-Grandparents so we have the same link to three of them. I presume that Pat is your grandmother? Their elder daughter Lydia (known as Jean) was mine.

Over the last six months or so my cousin and I have been able to compile a fair bit of information about Montague during WWI, and we know quite a little of Eric and Douglas during the war. We have also been able to track down what Great Grandpa was up to in WWII, which makes for interesting reading. I'd obviously be happy to share this with you; what is your email address?

I'd be fascinated to hear what Pat (presumably) had to say about Montague and Eric, as this must have come from Great Grandpa. It is relatively easy to see what events they took part in, but not what they were like and how their deaths could have affected our family post war.

Many thanks

Ed