jnorthall Posted 17 April , 2008 Share Posted 17 April , 2008 Could anyone direct me to sources regarding the above? I've read the Official Australian History (Volume VII – The Australian Imperial Force in Sinai and Palestine, 1914–1918 Ch.24) and would like to view other sources. I'm particular interested in the 53rd Division's role and especially the 1/7th (Merioneth and Montgomery) RWF. Many thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clive_hughes Posted 17 April , 2008 Share Posted 17 April , 2008 JRN, for starters try C.H.Dudley Ward, History of the 53rd (Welsh) Division (T.F.) 1914-1918 originally published by the Western Mail, Cardiff 1927, modern reprints available from The Naval & Military Press and by the same author: Regimental Records of the Royal Welch Fusiliers, Vol.IV Turkey - Bulgaria - Austria 1915-1918 reprint also available from the N&MP 2005 LST_164 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnorthall Posted 19 April , 2008 Author Share Posted 19 April , 2008 Thanks for the recommendations! How much information is available regarding the Turkish army? Do they have Official histories available? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clive_hughes Posted 19 April , 2008 Share Posted 19 April , 2008 Thanks for the recommendations! How much information is available regarding the Turkish army? Do they have Official histories available? I'm afraid I don't know about Turkish / German sources, but if you need to and no-one else responds, raise it as a separate thread under "Other Theatres" and I'm sure it'll attract attention. Having had a bit more time to think about your original query, isn't this the action in which the medical officer of the 1/6th RWF (Capt. John Fox Russell RAMC of Holyhead) won a posthumous VC? Same Brigade as the 1/5th & 1/7th. There's also the British Official History, the relevant volume(s) of which plus maps are now available in reprint form: also I suppose the relevant battalion, brigade and divisional WO 95 series War Diaries will be available at the National Archives. The 1/7th Diary for the period of the battle should be downloadable for the standard fee. There must also be a host of individual accounts, biographies, and general histories of that Theatre which make mention of the action in passing, but I don't suppose many of them will spend much time over it. The IWM London used to issue booklists for things like the Palestine Campaign, so if you want a reasonable list of volumes maybe you could buy one from that source? Mid-Wales local newspapers may print letters or brief accounts following the action, but heavily censored of course. If you felt like following up local libraries & archives in south Gwynedd and Powys you might be lucky and find personal accounts or diaries, and the same goes for places like the IWM Dept of Documents, but that depends on how much time & trouble you wish to invest in the matter. I also have a nagging feeling that the 7th RWF had their own printed history - could be wrong, but I will check this out with someone who knows better than I, and report back if successful. LST_164 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnorthall Posted 19 April , 2008 Author Share Posted 19 April , 2008 Thanks again. I've got in touch with the RWF Museum in Caernarvon and got copies of the War Diaries and the relevant "Regimental Records" pages for the period. Yes, you are correct about Capt. John Fox-Russell VC. He was awarded a VC for "greatest gallantry in rescuing and attending the wounded in the exposed and precarious position until he was killed" (RWF Regimental Records). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnorthall Posted 20 April , 2008 Author Share Posted 20 April , 2008 More about Capt. Fox-Russell VC: http://www.stbees.org.uk/publications/wardead/sbsvcs.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bill Woerlee Posted 20 April , 2008 Share Posted 20 April , 2008 JRN Here is the Turkish Official War History volume which deals with this subject: Birinci Dünya Harbinde Türk Harbi Sina-Filistin Cephesi, Ankara: Genelkurmay Basýmevi, 1986 If you are able to get a hold of a copy, you might be a tad bit disappointed by the quality of scholarship. However, this volume is the best general Turkish history available on the subject. There are more specialized works but these are even harder to get a hold of at the moment. The book by Kress is a very general text and quite readable. Mit den Tèurken zum Suezkanal, Friedrich Freiherr Kress von Kressenstein, 1938 As you can see, this is not a highly detailed piece of the war. Cheers Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnorthall Posted 20 April , 2008 Author Share Posted 20 April , 2008 Thanks Bill for the suggestions. I am I right in assuming that neither of these texts are translated into English? The only bit of Kressenstein's book I can on the internet was printed in a Gothic German typeset. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bill Woerlee Posted 20 April , 2008 Share Posted 20 April , 2008 JRN The first is in Turkish and the second is in German Gothic - no English translations are available. The only other book of good quality is Fuat Gücüyener, Sina Cephesinde Türk Ordusu (Turkish Army in Sinai Front) 1943, written by a fellow who served as a Captain in the 32nd Infantry Regiment where he fought on the Gallipoli, Sinai, Palestine and Syrian fronts. Again, this is in Turkish. Your original question How much information is available regarding the Turkish army? Do they have Official histories available? did not stipulate solely in the English language. If you are after English language accounts, they are listed here: These books should readily look good in any library. Cheers Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnorthall Posted 20 April , 2008 Author Share Posted 20 April , 2008 Thanks again! Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 25 April , 2008 Share Posted 25 April , 2008 Hi, Bill is certainly right when he says there isn't much available on this early November period, which is one particularly close to me area of interest (see signature). The Official History Vol2 covers it but not in great detail and hardly anything goes down to battalion level. Also, if they are of any interest I have the Regimental Diary of the Royal West Kents for that period. 53rd Division 160th Brigade. Send me a personal message if interested. Elsewhere there's a good description of the camel corps fighting at Khulweilfe in "A fighting colonel of Camel Corps: the life and experiences of Lt.-Col. N.B. de Lancey Forth" which you might be able to get hold off, even then it only really covers one incident in one chapter. Erickson's book 'Ordered to Die' covers the Turkish Army in some good detail for the whole war, but it ain't cheap. Also, somewhere on this list some kind soul posted some modern day images of the area...can't find them at the moment mind. Regards Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnorthall Posted 25 April , 2008 Author Share Posted 25 April , 2008 Thanks Nick - sent you a PM. Is "Ordered to Die" worth paying over £60 for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bill Woerlee Posted 27 April , 2008 Share Posted 27 April , 2008 JRN G'day mate Depends on what you consider is value. What one person thinks is great value another thinks is just junk - Ebay will let you clearly understand this. That being said, Ed's work was ground breaking at the time it was written. It has opened the door to international scholarship utilising the General Staff archives. He led the way and the sky did not fall in and the sun rose the following day in Turkey. So in terms of my work and study, his book is priceless for all the benefits it has brought to scholars who have followed. So 60 quid is cheap at twice the price. As for the work itself, it is a general coverage of the Ottoman Army rather than drilling down to unit by unit descriptions. So you can gain an overall impression but by the same token, you will be frustrated by the lack of detail. That detail, however, belongs to more precise works. Thus it depends upon your purpose for reading and how much you value acquiring that knowledge. Do I have a copy - yes of course. Without his references and work, I would never have been able to negotiate my way around the available Turkish resources or come into contact with some valuable scholars. So for me, it was worth every dollar I paid and then some. So it all comes back to your personal motivation and the value you place upon it. Cheers Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnorthall Posted 27 April , 2008 Author Share Posted 27 April , 2008 So in terms of my work and study, his book is priceless for all the benefits it has brought to scholars who have followed. So 60 quid is cheap at twice the price. As for the work itself, it is a general coverage of the Ottoman Army rather than drilling down to unit by unit descriptions. So you can gain an overall impression but by the same token, you will be frustrated by the lack of detail. That detail, however, belongs to more precise works. Thus it depends upon your purpose for reading and how much you value acquiring that knowledge. Thanks Bill, I was just looking for a "don't buy it - it's shocking" comments. Sounds like another £60 will have to be spent.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debimanor Posted 27 April , 2008 Share Posted 27 April , 2008 Also, somewhere on this list some kind soul posted some modern day images of the area...can't find them at the moment mind. Here are a couple of photos of Tel Khuweilfe today. One from the top looking SE to the route of attack up the valley taken by the British. The other side of the valley is the southern tip of the south Hebron foothills. In the foreground is Kibbutz Lahav which is built on one of the Tel's sloping sides. The chap on the right is Avi Navon - a member of Kibbutz Lahav and specialist in local history. He is showing a visitor from Australia around the Tel. The other photo shows the top of the Tel with some dug out defences. All the best, Debi (The Society for the Heritage of WW1 in Israel) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnorthall Posted 27 April , 2008 Author Share Posted 27 April , 2008 Thanks Debi. Is there any more photo's / information you can add? Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Debimanor Posted 29 April , 2008 Share Posted 29 April , 2008 Thanks Debi. Is there any more photo's / information you can add? Jonathan Hello Jonathan, Avi is a real expert in the field and he is due back from Australia this week. He is also a map expert and has a great collection of local maps. Here is a view looking west towards the coastal plain. Allenby's main force pushed up north through this plain following the fall of Beer Sheva, in pursuit of the Turkish forces. As well as kibbutz Lahav (est. 1952) the area has the largest man-made forest in Israel which has completely changed the scenery over the past 50 years, but the bare hills you can see here are the kind of landscape which would have prevailed in 1917. The Tel is of course an archaeological site. This has ensured its preservation, but there is still no memorial on the mound recording the events of WW1. I will see what other photos I can find. Best wishes, Debi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 30 April , 2008 Share Posted 30 April , 2008 These are excellent photos, Debi, thanks for sharing them. Additionally, has anyone ever seen a detailed map of the action around Khulweilfe? The best I have seen is the Official History which covers the entire Eastern end of the British Empire line. Does anyone have a more detailed map they can share? Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnorthall Posted 30 April , 2008 Author Share Posted 30 April , 2008 Does anyone have a more detailed map they can share? Haven't got a detailed one - just one for the whole battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzie Posted 30 April , 2008 Share Posted 30 April , 2008 JRN, if the 52nd division came in contact with the LH during this stage you might find references in the Light Horse Diaries, both at Brigade and Regimental levels. http://www.awm.gov.au/diaries/ww1/diary.asp?diary=67 Kim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnorthall Posted 30 April , 2008 Author Share Posted 30 April , 2008 JRN, if the 52nd division came in contact with the LH during this stage you might find references in the Light Horse Diaries, both at Brigade and Regimental levels. http://www.awm.gov.au/diaries/ww1/diary.asp?diary=67 Kim Thanks Kim, I'll check. I know that the 4th ALH was at the Battle of Beersheeba so they may have been involved a few days later too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzie Posted 30 April , 2008 Share Posted 30 April , 2008 The 4th, 12th, 11th, LH Regs. were involved. The 4th AND the 12th Charged Beersheba, with the 11th was coming up later. Visit the AWM website. http://www.awm.gov.au/units/ww1.asp http://www.awm.gov.au/atwar/index/ww1.asp http://www.awm.gov.au/histories/chapter.asp?volume=8 That should keep you out of mischief for a while. Cheers Kim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzie Posted 30 April , 2008 Share Posted 30 April , 2008 I've got a copy of Ordered To Die if you need any look ups. Cheers Kim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jnorthall Posted 30 April , 2008 Author Share Posted 30 April , 2008 I've got a copy of Ordered To Die if you need any look ups. Cheers Kim In that case, could you confirm who exactly was the Turkish 'opposition' at Tel El Khuweilfe? Thanks, Jonathan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Posted 30 April , 2008 Share Posted 30 April , 2008 JRN Turks certainly included the 19th Infantry Division. The 19th had served well at Gallipoli under Kemal. Incidentaly, Chapter 13 of Lindsay Baly's book "Horseman Pass By" gives an account of the ALH at Khulweilfe, and, in answer to my own question, it contains a map. Shame my scanner is 10 miles away at the moment Nick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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