Mutiny

[castle]

My g grandfather was court martialed in 1919 for mutiny he was in the

5th irish dragoon guards although he was a londoner. Checking records

the whole unit seems to have been court martialed for the same offence

The court martials took place at Curragh county Kildare Ireland and the men were given 1yr hard labour reduced to six mths and I G N Y?

Can anyone shed any light on this and what does I G N Y stand for?

I have spoken to the archivist at the dragoons museum and he could

shed no light on the mutinies or the court martials or even what I G N Y

stands for.

Regards

Tracy

[Terry_Reeves]

Tracey

This certainly sounds an interesting story. I am only guessing here, but with the men being given custodial sentences it is possible that they were also thrown out of the army once they had served their time and discharged with "ignomy." This may explain the letters.

Terry Reeves

[CROONAERT]

Hi Tracy.

Terry is quite correct in his assumption on the meaning of the initials.To put it bluntly ,they were "sacked".

186 privates and L/Cpls of the 5/DG's and King Edwards Horse were charged with mutiny between the 22nd and 26th September 1919 at Curragh (more trials were held between 29th-30th Sept.).They had been "protesting" because they wanted demobilising,after all the fighting had ended 10 months previous..

Various sentences were meted out,the most severe being that to Pte.R.H.Theirens (the ringleader?),who received 5 years Penal Servitude and Disch Igmny (commuted to 2 years detention). A few were aquitted,but the rest all had their sentences commuted(mainly to custodial ones). None were actually "sacked" in the end.

Another (lot smaller) group of cavalrymen,this time the 10th Hussars,mutinied at Curragh in 1921.

[Conor Dodd]

You could try the National Archives in Dublin or the newspapers (Irish Times etc.) in the National Library although I think the British Library has some of them just to add another mutiny in the Curragh in 1922 a lot of officers of the Irish Army when the Irish Army started replacing men who fought in the War Of Independance with people who fought during the Great War with the British Army my great great uncle was one of the men who was part of the mutiny and his brother was killed on the 01/07/1916 with the Royal Dublin Fusiliers

Conor

[CROONAERT]

Tracy,

If you let me have your Great grandad's name,I'll give you the reference number that deals with him at the PRO.

Dave.

[Frank_East]

Tracy,

Julian Putkowski's "British Army Mutineers 1914-1918". ISBN 0-9532388-2-2 contains the names of each of the accused and sentences pronounced together with the PRO File Reference for each one.

It should be easy to reference the case against your G Grandfather and obtain the detail from his case file.

Most of the group found guilty were sentenced to 1 Year Hard Labour.12 were acquitted.

Regards

Frank East

[CROONAERT]

All those sentenced to 1 year hard labour had their sentences reduced to 6 months detention.

[Frank_East]

Correction to my recent posting.

JP's Book "British Army Mutineers" should read "1914-22" and not "1914-1918"

[castle]

First of all, thank-you everyone for your replies.

My g grandfathers name was Walter Dilworth, I have a

copy of the page of the court martial book, not alot of info there

though just date (29th sept 1919) Name , regt, offence and

sentance is there a fuller account of the proceedings any

where? and were the mutinies of the 5th dragoon guards in

sept 1919 connected in anyway with the Curragh incident 1914

as the 5th dragoon guards were at Curragh then also (according

to the dragoon museum archivist). I Know that those connected

with the Curragh Incident were (depending on which article you

read) sent over the top first in France (Marne I believe) and fired

the first shots either as a punishment or as the dragoon

records say an honour!!

Any further Ideas would be realy welcome as this is the only

record I can seem to find on my g grandfathers rather chequered

military career.

for other readers interest this is the list of other named on the

court martial page, all 5th dragoon guards all same charge all same

sentance,

Pte G T Mathews,Pte H Millward,Pte W D Pawnall,Pte J S Sibbald

Pte W Wathinson,Pte J K White,Pte C F Young,Pte W J Ambrose

Pte E Arthurs,Pte E E Bradfield, Pte F Clarke,Pte W Carroll

Pte A Cossey, Pte W Dilworth, Pte H E Davies, Pte A H Ewington

Pte G W Fisher, Pte F Gough, Pte H Illingworth, Pte C Gandy

Pte H W Jowett, Pte H Robinson, Pte D Stones,

Pte J Simpson, Pte H Wood, Pte E Wallace.

Tracy

[CROONAERT]

Tracy.

Pte.W.F.Dilworth's PRO reference is : WO/92/4/82.

I don't know if you'll find anything you don't already know, but good luck anyway.

Dave.

[Jock Bruce]

Tracy

The PRO reference given is to the General Courts Martial Registers, Confirmed at Home - if this is what I think it is, then it is exactly what it says on the box and is simply a list of names, dates, offence and sentence, rather than providing any details of the individual and the proceedings of his trial - happy to be proved wrong.

I would be surprised if there was any direct connection between the Curragh Incident and post-war discontent about demobilisation.

Jock Bruce

[CROONAERT]

Jock.

Page 14 of the book that Frank East mentions (British Army Mutineers 1914-22)states that in most mutiny cases at home, including the mass mutiny of the 5DG's (Curragh),"the men's principle demand was linked with demobilisation".

Dave.

[Jock Bruce]

Dave,

Apologies if my posting confusingly implied that the 'incident' I believe wasn't connected with post-war dissent took place in 1919.

I was trying to draw a distinction between the 1914 Curragh Incident (a reaction to the prospect of the emploment of the British Army against Unionists in Ulster) and the post-war mutiny of the 5DGs resulting from discontent about demobilisation, and answer Tracey's question about the two being connected. Which I don't think they were.

Both at the Curragh, both involved 5DG - but that's all.

Jock Bruce