bogesy Posted 22 March , 2008 Share Posted 22 March , 2008 I make this post, as I am wondering if anyone has information on an unusual series of trench maps. A few years ago, I acquired a 1:5,000 trench map from the 1916 Somme fighting. I have other such maps in my collection, but this particular one was very strange. Unlike any other 1:5,000 map I had ever seen, this one was not only linen-backed, but of great size, fully as large as a standard 1:10,000 or 1:20,000 map (it measures about 28 inches x 39 inches). The map shows the trenches corrected to July 22, 1916 and is titled 'Longueval (Part of).' It bears, in blue ink, hand-written annotations that read 'Additional Work Shown in Blue, Trenches corrected up to 22-7-16,' and is part of the series 'GSGS 3256.' The map does in fact show additional work in blue (added on, by hand, to the normal red template for German trenches) and I think it might have been used by the 56th or 57th Brigades, though I really have no idea. I have described the map in such detail because, while I had always assumed it was practically unique, I recently acquired a map of an almost identical type that shows the area just to the North (the first map shows all of Longueval in the South and runs through the Southern quarter of Martinpuich in the North--the new map picks up exactly where the old one leaves off, showing the Northern three quarters of Martinpuich in the South, running all the way up to Le Sars and Butte de Warlencourt in the North). Like the first map, it is 1:5,000 scale, of enormous size for such a map (slightly bigger even than the first, 30 x 42 inches), linen-backed, and also dated to July 22, 1916. It is titled 'Le Sars (Part of).' It too bears, in blue ink, the same hand-written annotations as the previous map: 'Additional Work Shown in Blue, Trenches corrected up to 22-7-16' (the hand-writing itself, of course, is different). Aside from the location, all that sets it apart from the first map is the series number associated with it. While the first map bears the number GSGS 3256, the second bears the number 3255. I can also give concrete information on the newer map's history of use, as I know it was in the possession of a soldier who served in the 17th Royal Fusiliers (I suspect it was issued to him in connection with the 17th's assault on Delville Wood of July 27). At any rate, I am curious to know if anyone has any information on what is apparently a rather strange series of trench map, or if they have any idea of where I might look to find such information. I dearly value both maps, and would like to learn as much about them as possible. I have all of Chasseaud's books, of course, but he has little information on 1:5,000 maps. In this regard, more generally, does anyone out there know of good published material on 1:5,000 maps? I have many maps on that scale, but I can't find the same kind of information on them as I can for 1:10,000 and 1:20,000 maps. Any help in this matter would be greatly appreciated. Kind regards, Josh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ysolde Posted 3 May , 2008 Share Posted 3 May , 2008 Josh, I'd love to see a scan of this map, as I'm looking for details of trenches at Guillemont around this time, in particular the "KNOTT " trench, and "HILL ST" at Guillemont.. Regards, Ysolde. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bogesy Posted 3 May , 2008 Author Share Posted 3 May , 2008 Ysolde, I'm having electronic copies made of both maps and would be happy to share them with you. Just so you know, though, they don't cover Guillemont. The first map is the one that comes closest, but it doesn't go past the SE corner of Delville Wood. Josh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ysolde Posted 4 May , 2008 Share Posted 4 May , 2008 Josh, Oh well, never mind. I've managed to get some assistance with my search in another thread, but I do appreciate your offer all the same. Regards, Ysolde. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmjjm@btopenworld.com Posted 5 May , 2008 Share Posted 5 May , 2008 josh, do the maps show the area to the west of Delville Wood as I am researching this area Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnreed Posted 5 May , 2008 Share Posted 5 May , 2008 Josh The map is part of a series of Tactical maps printed at Southampton for Fourth and Fifth Armies 1916. 3256 1:5000 Longueval (Part of ) OS 1916 enlarged from 1:10,000. Area: Martinpuich -High Wood -Bazentine le Petit Wood- Longueval. German trenches and target numbers in red. Red. GSGS Map Room 24-7-16. Size 93x56 cm. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest philserre Posted 5 May , 2008 Share Posted 5 May , 2008 I am also very interested in the history of Longueval and would be interested in a seeing an electronic copy of both maps, if that's possible? If so, how would I go about doing that? Regards, Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bogesy Posted 5 May , 2008 Author Share Posted 5 May , 2008 josh, do the maps show the area to the west of Delville Wood as I am researching this area Martin Yes, the maps show this area. If there's a particular location in which you're interested, I can try to upload it, or if you give me your email address I can just send you both maps (each about 7 MB). Josh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bogesy Posted 5 May , 2008 Author Share Posted 5 May , 2008 I am also very interested in the history of Longueval and would be interested in a seeing an electronic copy of both maps, if that's possible? If so, how would I go about doing that? Regards, Phil Phil-- Happy to send then to you if you give me an email address. Each is about 7 MB. Can also post here any excerpt in which you're interested. --Josh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bogesy Posted 6 May , 2008 Author Share Posted 6 May , 2008 Josh The map is part of a series of Tactical maps printed at Southampton for Fourth and Fifth Armies 1916. 3256 1:5000 Longueval (Part of ) OS 1916 enlarged from 1:10,000. Area: Martinpuich -High Wood -Bazentine le Petit Wood- Longueval. German trenches and target numbers in red. Red. GSGS Map Room 24-7-16. Size 93x56 cm. John Dear John-- It is very good of you to give me this information and I am in your debt. On the principle that no good deed goes unpunished, I'll pepper you with a few questions. Has this information been published somewhere? How did you come by it? Are there are other maps in the series? How many, and of what areas? Also, do you know when they were printed? Since the trenches are corrected by hand to the 22nd, I've assumed they were distributed to troops sometime in the middle of July. Last, when you say "GSGS Map Room 24-7-16," what do you mean? What does July 24 have to do with the maps? At any rate, I greatly appreciate your assistance with the maps--I've been curious about them for a while. Best regards, --Josh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnreed Posted 6 May , 2008 Share Posted 6 May , 2008 Josh Get hold of "Artillery's Astrologers" by Peter Chasseaud the book is quite expensive but as far as I am concerned well worth it, and it will answer all your questions. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmjjm@btopenworld.com Posted 6 May , 2008 Share Posted 6 May , 2008 Josh, greatly appreciated, email mmjjm@btopenworld.com thanks Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bogesy Posted 6 May , 2008 Author Share Posted 6 May , 2008 Josh, greatly appreciated, email mmjjm@btopenworld.com thanks Martin Dear Martin-- Sent the maps. The files are a little large, so let me know if they don't reach you. Hope the maps are of interest, --Josh Josh Get hold of "Artillery's Astrologers" by Peter Chasseaud the book is quite expensive but as far as I am concerned well worth it, and it will answer all your questions. John John-- Thanks for the citation. I know his other books (Topography of Armageddon, etc.) but hadn't heard of this one. Thanks again for the lead, --Josh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimSmithson Posted 6 May , 2008 Share Posted 6 May , 2008 Josh Two questions. Firstly, where did you acquire the maps? I am both a 1WW and map fanatic in almost equal measure. Living in Germany is a bit of a hindrance but I would love to get hold of some originals. Secondly, I am working in the area of Delville & High Wood plus Courcelette in the summer and although I have digital trench maps of the area, yours sound a very special find. If I could trouble you to send them I would be most grateful. I will PM you my email address if you are happy to do so. Thanks Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest philserre Posted 6 May , 2008 Share Posted 6 May , 2008 Josh, Thanks for offering to email the map copies. I have split my email address into two parts to avoid the web crawlers picking it up and sending me even more spam! philneedham @ukf.net Thanks, Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmjjm@btopenworld.com Posted 6 May , 2008 Share Posted 6 May , 2008 Josh, received the maps, thanks a lot, Just what I wanted, Thanks Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bogesy Posted 7 May , 2008 Author Share Posted 7 May , 2008 Josh Two questions. Firstly, where did you acquire the maps? I am both a 1WW and map fanatic in almost equal measure. Living in Germany is a bit of a hindrance but I would love to get hold of some originals. Secondly, I am working in the area of Delville & High Wood plus Courcelette in the summer and although I have digital trench maps of the area, yours sound a very special find. If I could trouble you to send them I would be most grateful. I will PM you my email address if you are happy to do so. Thanks Jim Dear Jim-- Yes, by all means, I'd be happy to send you the maps, so do PM me your email address. I purchased one map on ebay, and another map in an antique store in Britain. With you being based in Germany, ebay might be your best bet for acquiring originals, as maps appear there fairly often (I warn you, however, that some of the prices for which maps have recently been going on ebay are just outlandishly high). You could also try the web-site for the book dealer Turner Donovan, from whom I've purchased original maps in the past. They don't seem to have anything right now, though, so be sure to get on their mailing list. --Josh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimSmithson Posted 7 May , 2008 Share Posted 7 May , 2008 Josh Many thanks for both the maps (in advance) and for the advice. If ever you need anything that I may be able to help with either form Germany or when I am at the house in France just let me know. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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