'Sniggery' Barracks

[geraint]

Phil

That may well be the one. Sniggery may well have been the general name given by men who had never been there before.

Thanks to all

Geraint

[Dragon]

This assumption seems like force-fitting. Sniggery (depending on which one you take) is a couple of miles away from the Altcar range. Why would men call something Sniggery if it was at Altcar? Why not call it Altcar?

Not that I care where it is, but I do like proof, not supposition.

Gwyn

[daggers]

Are we getting into Sassoon territory? There were training units at Litherland, and probably at Hightown as well. The latter, used as shorthand for 'and district' could cover tented or hutted camps within a radius of a couple of miles, just as, in the original post, 'Liverpool' was used for a much wider circle. At one time Altcar had it own railway halt or station for the use of those shooting on the ranges.[At this point I shall break off and see if anything relevant appears in the history of the Altcar Rifle Range]. Back later

Daggers

[daggers]

Nothing in the history, sorry.

Daggers

[geraint]

Yes. My understanding is that he went to 11SWB from Sniggery. Kinmel first, then Sniggery, then Ypres, and saw action at Polygon Wood. He is also associated at latter half of war with 1st RWF. I've not followed that up as yet - I'm still trying to decipher his training at Sniggery!

Gwyneth

My understanding of 'temporary camps' are bell tents containing 20 men. A permanent camp would have wooden barrack huts. Many permenant camps expanded overnight with temporary bell tents.

When Ian says that Altcar (permenant) is quite close to Sniggery (temporary), it may be easy for the squaddies to refer to both as 'Sniggery'.

Geraint

[Dragon]

The whole thread is force-fitting the unknown into the known. There isn't a single piece of proof so far that Sniggery equates to Altcar.

As I said, I don't particularly care. I spent some of my precious time doing some looking up in order to try to be specific, including among some very particular data which we have about that region for later publication, and I shall leave you to suppose.

Gwyn

[PhilB]

When Ian says that Altcar (permenant) is quite close to Sniggery (temporary), it may be easy for the squaddies to refer to both as 'Sniggery'.

Geraint

Or possibly a very large camp would be split into smaller sub-camps each with its own (possibly unofficial) designation, as I believe happens today in very large military bases?

Is it only "concrete proof" you`re after, Geraint, or will hopefully helpful suggestions be permitted too?

[geraint]

All replies are appreciated. Im not delving into the history of Sniggery - where Dragon's views would be most pertinent. The name Sniggery cropped up in reminiscenses, and the VD display near by sort of made it more interesting regarding the early history of the soldier I'm researching. My initial thoughts was that Sniggery was a soldier's slang "a sniggery of schoolboys!".

Phil - you mention a subcamp. May well be so - I know of Kinmel Camp (training and transit) in 1919 that was sub-divided into 21 camps all known after Canadian cities. May be the same here.

I'm away to the somme tonight - apologies if there are no replies for a week or two!

Geraint

[Ian Riley]

'New' Sniggery Wood, known certainly since the 1950s (when I went tadpoling there) just as 'Sniggery Wood'. has been on the map since at least 1840 and stands today, just as it did then, with not a hint of a housing estate within half a mile. As already explained it is between the village of Little Crosby and Hightown.

http://wikimapia.org/1886485/ shows 'New' Sniggery Wood as already mentioned

I do not think that the Crosby, Hightown and Altcar area had anything like the concentration of camps that were at places such as Kinmel. There was Altcar and there would have been a camp serving the coastal battery that was either at Altcar during WW1 or had moved slightly south developed from 1904. There were camps in Litherland to the south and closer to Liverpool. I certainly do not think that 'Sniggery' would be a term that would be used to include the older Altcar. Altcar Rifle Range and its camp are actually quite difficult to get to from the Sniggery locations because of the River Alt, the railway, the sand dunes and the resulting long winding lanes across very marshy and often flooded ground (even today).

http://www.online-archaeology.co.uk/UKArch...t.aspx?IID=1013

This gives the address of Fort Crosby as Sniggery Farm which is North West of Sniggery Wood and immediately east of the Liverpool Southport railway and just on the northern edge of the West Lancs Golf Course.

I have heard before of a temporary camp in the area and there may have been something in the local press some years ago. I seem to remember that it was in the fields somewhere near Sniggery Wood. The person who might know something about it is Mr Bob Wright who runs the village museum in Little Crosby. A letter to him at The Village Museum, Little Crosby. Liverpool L23 (with SAE and perhaps a modest donation for his museum which he maintains himself) might produce something about the local camp.

Regarding the wax works, I would agree with Simon Jones that they were probably in Liverpool although I think that they would have been at the Liverpool Museum of Anatomy, a commercial and somewhat dodgy peep show run on pseudo-medical lines where you could go and see the dire results of almost every type of abuse that you could imagine and some that you could not. I have the circa 1880 Catalogue and it is truly scary; no adolescent boy would have been able to leave with an easy mind (or indeed any mind at all according to the owners of the museum). It was apparently known in Liverpool as the Pox Palace. http://louisville.edu/~tavan001/MerseytalkP.html The Museum was in Paradise Street and gets a mention on this site http://www.showhistory.com/anatomical.html although I advise surfing no further into the link that the page it brings up. This would have been a march from Sniggery camp/barracks/whatever probably to Hall Road Station and then on the train into Liverpool which is probably about 25 minutes

Certainly there has never been any purpose built 'permanent' barracks in the area. The nearest would have been Seaforth Barracks (in Seaforth at the north end of the dock estate). Harington Barracks in Formby was not built until 1940, I understand.

Ian

Edited 12 December , 2009 by Ian Riley

[Ian Riley]

Following a personal visit to Little Crosby Village Museum and a bracing Easter Sunday walk across open mossland through the most biting wind that that the Mersey estuary could offer, I can confirm that Sniggery Camp lay between Sniggery Wood and Sniggery Farm. This is from a man who is the local historian, whose grandmother held the farm and whose brother's plough regularly turns up bricks, ash and cinder from the site. The hour is late and more detail will follow with a map if my scanner can be persuaded to work

Ian

[Ian Riley]

I have put a better image at www.liverpoolscottish.org.uk/sniggerycampLARGE.jpg

Location 53°30'45.27"N 3° 3'6.58"W to 53°30'19.75"N 3° 2'50.77"W on Google Earth

The approximate location of Sniggery Camp is outlined in red. Bob Wright thought that the parade ground had been fairly central and that there were huts to the north. Steel work was salvaged after the war and used on the Blundell estate (the Blundells live in Crosby Hall which is part of Little Crosby) and "the squire turned pigs onto the camp land to clean it up after the war". It's a bit feudal in Little Crosby where I suspect that money has not changed hands for 700 years over the estate that has passed by inheritance throughout. I do not think that it can have been the most comfortable of camps. It is very close to the coast separated by very flat land and dune, the water table is high (although the ground is very sandy) and the River Alt is liable to flooding still. There are now pumping stations all over the place and flood control is a major concern in the area.

Bob Wright, the 'honorary oldest resident' (he's not but see previous post) also told me that there was another camp on land now occupied by the Liverpool Ramblers Football Club (never heard of them?? ... why ... they were the very first people to use a goal net). The ground is at Thornton (aboutv two miles away) 53°29'51.16"N 3° 0'35.20"W . Soldiers would march from Thornton to Sniggery Sidings to entrain. I think that this may have been Crosby Camp about which we have had enquiries as it would be smack on the borderline between Great Crosby and Thornton. The old clubhouse and changing room (before they built themselves a brick bunker in the 90's), was apparently the camp guardroom.

Bob Wright also thought that Sniggery Camp was quite different from any encampment for Altcar or Fort Crosby. The Fort Crosby coastal battery was close but on the other side of an electrified railway line.

Ian

Edited 31 July , 2009 by Ian Riley

[geraint]

Ian

Truly magnificent research. Many, many thanks. I've hot-footed back home tonight, switched into the Forum and am amazed! The result and interest in general in what I thought was a 'lost cause' has been truly excellent. I appreciate each and every response, and wish I could buy you all a pint!

Geraint

[graham01]

sniggery woods,ah the very name brings back memories of freezing winters doing cross country running at school in crosby.with a bit of luck within the next few weeks i should be recieving some photos of the tented camp at sniggery woods which i viewed last monday at my late dads cousin,who is helping me with my family tree.when i get them i will post right away.thereis 3 or 4 of them all have big high tents in the background.graham.

[Ian Riley]

Graham,

Excellent. I look forward to seeing the photos. I think I successfully managed to avoid all cross-country running in the vicinity of Sniggery Woods (and anywhere else) at MTS during the early sixties: "Ian has a bad cold and a delicate nature such that running around in pumps, shorts and a PT vest in early April would render him liable to pschycological scarring and physical harm. This condition will last exactly as long as the cross-country season signed Ian's Mum". I finally had to do one or two in the TA

Look forward to the pictures

Ian

[geraint]

Graham; Ian!

It would be good to have a visual picture of Sniggery.

[Ian Riley]

Geraint,

Visual Picture = Photo ???

Sniggery Wood access is a bit difficult as the bridle path along Dibb Lane has been blocked by bollards and it is no longer possible to drive along it. A gentleman in Little Crosby got into some trouble for unofficially blocking it to cars and there was some discussion of it being a byway but you can now only squeeze a horse through at one end!

I can get some photos from the camp side at the end of Gorsey Lane next to Sniggery Farm and I will do my best with this next time I am over in Crosby and my mother doesn't mind being her Sunday lunch being hijacked by Forum business. As it is I live 25 miles away at present.

Ian

[graham01]

as promised here are some photos that i managed to get from my dads cousin,i am afraid there are no bell tents .i got the wrong end of the stick on that one(too much info fed into my tiny brain at once,i got mixed up woth other info,sorry)however the following photos are marked on the back sniggery camp crosby,the wooden hut (band hut)suggests more than temporay,here goes anyway

here is the third one

[graham01]

the 2 photos of the young lads both have on the back the NAME OF PRIVATE .C.FIELDING ON THE BACK.HAVE NO IDEA WHICH ONE HE IS ,CANT FIND ANY CONNECTION TO MY MY FAMILY.NO IDEA HOW THEY CAME INTO THE FAMILYS POSSESION.GRAHAM...

[WelshVoices]

I have a photograph of a group of SWB soldiers, with a wooden hut behind them, and on the back is written "Some of the happy boys at Sniggery Camp near Liverpool in 1915".

[johndavidswarbrick]

Just to add my two penny worth to this long running thread - here's a bit about one of the lads I'm researching:

Extract from The Lancaster Observer & Morecambe Chronicle

Friday 8th February 1918

PTE RICHARD SWARBRICK – DEATH IN HOSPITAL

The funeral took place at Lancaster Cemetery on Monday of the late Pte Richard Swarbrick [19] South Wales Borderers, and the youngest son of Mrs Swarbrick, 46, Eastham Street Lancaster. The deceased soldier died in hospital at Sniggery Camp, Hightown, Liverpool on January 30th, following upon injuries sustained in an accident during bombing practice about a week before Christmas. He joined the colours on March 9th 1916, at the age of 18 years, and proceeded to the front in June 1917, going through some stiff fighting. He was recommended for the Military Medal, but further details are still lacking. He was wounded in action and sent to Colchester Hospital and was later transferred to another battalion of the South Wales Borderers. A former pupil of St Peter’s School, he was employed in the goods department of the London & North West Railway Company before enlistment. He was very popular amongst his comrades, and as a mark of esteem the boys in D2 Ward at the hospital forwarded a beautiful artificial wreath. The funeral was of a quiet character, only a few relatives and friends being present. Rev Fr Rogerson officiated.

Dave Swarbrick

[WelshVoices]

Here is the photograph referred to above - on the back is written "Some of the happy boys at Sniggery Camp near Liverpool in 1915".

Gethin

[asanewt]

Stumbled onto this very late. Thanks for the photo' Gethin it's just like the background to one of ours.

These show my Mam's two elder brothers that served and survived. They could be anywhere I suppose but the younger Uncle

told me the tale of Sniggery Camp and the Sunday march to the waxworks. He was 96 at the time of telling.

He could be Geraint's soldier. Regards, Jules

[geraint]

How could I have missed these last postings! Absolutely brilliant. Thanks to all contributors.

[stephenogley]

3rd Bat S.W.B moved 9th June 1915 to hightown Liverpool as part of Mersey Garrison, based sniggery camp.

[Ian Riley]

I have not visited this post for a while and am astonished at the range of pictures that have surfaced.

 

Here is another piece of the jigsaw, the camp cross, Sniggery Camp Cross, now housed with inscription a few miles down the coast towards Liverpool at St Michael's Church in Blundellsands (I was christened there and my grandparents' houses and my sometime rugby club are on the picture - Memory Lane  )

 

http://www.iwm.org.uk/memorials/item/memorial/15125 

 

When next about, I will see if I can get a photo.

 

The link to the higher res map that I posted has vanished from our webite; I will see if I can repost somewhere. 

Edited 31 August , 2017 by Ian Riley