Fromelles

[Auimfo]

Thanks Mat,

We at least have one journo who has made a decent attempt to explain the state of play with a reasonable amount of accuracy. I like the quote at the end of the article from a current serving French General, "They have been buried for 90 years in the soil of France. What greater honour could they have?"

I'd answer that with "Being buried in the soil of France under a headstone bearing their name" (where possible of course)

Cheers,

Tim L.

[LizM]

Hi Liz

Robin Corfield's history of the Fromelles Battle 'Don't Forget Me Cobber' does cover the previous attacks at Fromelles as well as the experiences of the British 61st Division which was alongside the 5th Australian Division. It also covers the view of the battle from the German perspective.

This was one book which definately deserved a much wider print run or another reprint.

Cheers

Andrew

Thanks Andrew

I will see if I can get copy.

LizM

[Muerrisch]

At the risk of be 'ozzed to death', I have just read this thread from start to finish and have to confess that I had not forgotten Fromelles as a battle, I had never heard of it except as a place!

Shame on Grumpy.

So, in this respect, my education has been increased substantially.

RIP all the victims of Fromelles.

[Guest Bill Woerlee]

And here we have the summary from the putative collector of descendants’ details regarding the proposed dig:

We at least have one journo who has made a decent attempt to explain the state of play with a reasonable amount of accuracy.

No personal insight, just let someone else do the talking. Just a standard reformulation of the casual “See I told you so” response should remains be discovered. No mention of the ethical considerations required to be satisfied in undertaking such a work and the follow on consequences.

“Ethics?” he ask with a confused look on his face. “Ithn’t that a county nextht to Thussex?”

And here is the coup de main:

I like the quote at the end of the article from a current serving French General, "They have been buried for 90 years in the soil of France. What greater honour could they have?" I'd answer that with "Being buried in the soil of France under a headstone bearing their name"

Nothing like a characteristic glib one liner to avoid addressing the substantive issue.

Let’s have a look at the statement. Bodies found in fields in France, each with their own headstone. Folks, I have got a genuine scoop for you – the whole of this area is covered with the remains of fallen soldiers. They range from the hanging headless victims of the Belgae to that of World War 2, over 3,000 years. Everyone supplied with a headstone??? What a stupendous effort this would require. Or is our putative data collector only referring to Australians? No mention on how these bodies are to be distinguished until full excavation has occurred. How do we identify a bone as belonging to a specific national entity? And if they are not positively identified as Australian? Put the bones in some yet to be funded ossuary with the hope that someone will fund the identification process?

The issues are many and grave and require substantial more intellectual effort than a “See I told you so” justification or a glib one liner. There is nothing substantive in that situation. Both circumstances betray an essential lack of understanding or empathy towards the issues involved. Until ethics and methodology of dealing with a mass grave such as this are carefully worked out before hand, this excavation to prove that there is a mass grave will force a range of issues upon those participating and those cheering at the side lines in ways they never anticipated. Well that’s not strictly true – this post illustrates what can be anticipated, just that it will be brushed off with breathless arrogance and another cheap one liner.

One of the worst outcomes, and the only possible outcome, is that relatives expectations will be unjustly and cruelly excited by a process that appears to promise an answer but will only deliver disappointment. When the exploratory “See I told you so” is over and all the real questions are asked, the relatives will see that they were conned. The use of relatives to justify a dig, that in the end will produce no identification, is to defraud them in the worst way possible. It perpetrates a cruel hoax and a savage fraud.

Until the difficult issues are addressed, this dig is an ethical disaster in the making.

[Fedelmar]

Bill ... as a qualified researcher working on the genealogy of the Australian soldiers I am offended by your statements and assumptions.

Bright Blessings

Sandra

[Auimfo]

Bill,

If you honestly think I'm going to demean myself by responding to your personalized gutter level of argument in your continual vain attempts to discredit 'amateurs' - think again.

The obvious deliberate omission of a number of facts in your argument speaks volumes with no need for me to elaborate.

Cheers,

Your Putative Data Collector.

[john jerome mcmanus]

G'day once again to all that have entered into this thread -which is starting to sound like a slanging match.

Matt originally started this thread (which I have already commented on) to address whether there was a cover up of the Australian participation in the action/battle/diversion at Fromelles.

Now every man and his dog is positing ifs and buts as to the ethics behind the forthcoming dig, what may or may not be found, and what outcomes may need to be addressed - if indeed anything of consequence is unearthed.

For God's sake (or Matt's and mine) put a lid on it. If you have a comment please address it to the original question or look at other postings on this Forum which talk about the ifs and buts.

Th dig is going to proceed! If there are Aussies or Tommies found at the Pheasants Wood site that may be the time to start blowing trumpets or mounting high horses.

Be patient.

Regards

Pop

[ianw]

Tend to agree with Pop here - we should not fan the flames of controversy here.

It seems to me that folk apparently at daggers drawn are in reality much closer together in their views when you actually analyse what they say with the personal sniping removed or ignored.

This matter is obviously raising passions in Australia - quite understandably - but more temperate language in the posts would help reveal the key matters requiring careful consideration and show respect to the Australian dead who may or may not be found at Fromelles.

[Auimfo]

Totally agree guys.

Any current 'controversy' can only be speculative and imaginary until such time that it's established whether remains in fact exist. Even then, a controversy can only occur if there are a number of alternatives open regarding the examination of remains. Indeed, it may well eventuate that only one option is available and hence there can be no possible debate.

As I said several times earlier, let's wait and see what results from the upcoming exploratory dig. Then we'll all have a far better understanding of what is and isn't possible.

Cheers,

Tim L.

[Guest]

i can see where this conversation is going

william

[Terry Denham]

This thread is providing a lot of interest for many people.

DO NOT SPOIL IT.

Any further posts written in other than the good spirit of this Forum and in accordance with its rules will result in action being taken. There will be no further warnings.

[john jerome mcmanus]

G'day Terry

Thank you

Pop

[Ozzie]

Patsy Adam-Smith devotes a chapter to Fromelles in her book, The Anzacs, published 1978.

Kim

[J Banning]

The problem of test digging to determine whether there are any bodies in this field are further exacerbated by the fact that the Germans had three dugouts adjacent to where the mass burial pits were supposed to have been dug. Somehow I don't think the Germans would have had mass graves in close vicinity to dugouts...unless they abandoned them, and used the dugouts temselves as additional grave pits. I have a photo of the field involved but won't post it for obvious reasons.

regards

Tom

Hi Jeremy,

I can't really say any more without giving away the position of the suspected mass burial pits.

Regards

Tom

Hi Tom,

I have been involved with some of the research work on the current report for Fromelles so certainly know the position of the pits. I asked for clarification from you as your statement is incorrect. I do think that with the amount of interest shown internationally in this matter that it is important that the correct facts are given. So, I just wanted you (and others interested in this) to know that there were no dugouts near to the suspected burial pits. There was a small pillbox but no dugouts. Any delay in work on site is due to the extremely wet nature of the ground (as has been reported).

Of course, if you have information that you think could be of help then please send me a PM and we’ll go from there.

Cheers

Jeremy

[Fedelmar]

Good luck Jeremy ... hope the weather has improved. Many of us at home in Australia are eagerly waiting for confirmation on the dig findings.

Bright Blessings

Sandra

[Bob Doneley]

My opinion on the origin of 'the cover-up' of Fromelles goes back to British newspapers at the time reporting that the battle was 'an important raid'. Brig Pompey Elliott was scathing of this reporting after the war and he, and others, considered the reporting to be a 'cover-up' of British military incompetence. Pompey Elliott, a very bitter man deeply scarred by what he had seen on Gallipoli and France and angry over his lack of promotion, wrote several articles about the Fromelles 'cover-up' and (I believe) gave several public lectures on the subject.

The battle itself was never covered up - it was just the scale and casualties that some believed had been understated. This was the start of the story of a cover-up - a story that some still adhere to and, dare I say, still believe.

Bob

[towisuk]

Hi Jeremy, The reason I thought there were dugouts adjacent to Pheasant wood is taken from looking at trenchmaps of the area. In one map there are three red squares which according to the index at the bottom of the map indicate a dugout. I have since looked at a later map of the same area and have found that eight red circles have now replaced the three red squares in that version of the map. Also, yet a third map has what appears to be six overlapping red rectangles replacing the three red squares. A further map in blue seems to indicate six sites again close together in pairs, the closest marks in the index at the bottom of the map are for dugouts....... I assumed from the first map that because the symbols were the same as were used for dugouts in the index then thats what they were.

regards

tom

[Mat McLachlan]

An interesting piece of info I just stumbled across that adds to the 'no cover-up' assertion. After the war, a group of small towns in Queensland were named after important sites from the war: Amiens, Bapaume, Passchendaele, Pozeires and...(drumroll please)... Fleurbaix. For those not aware, the attack at Fromelles was commonly known as the Battle of Fleurbaix (another town near the battlefield) for many years after the war. If Fromelles/Fleurbaix was being covered up, they certainly weren't doing a very good job of it.

I've also just done a quick scan of the White Pages and, following the custom of naming streets after battlefields, just about every major city in Australia has its Fromelles Streets, Fromelles Avenues, Fromelles Courts and Fromelles Crescents. Add to this the large number of Fleurbaix Streets, Fleurbaix Avenues, etc, and you start to get the impression that the forgotten battle of Fromelles isn't so forgotten after all.

I'll be leading a tour group around the battlefields for Anzac Day, so if anyone is going to the dawn service at Villers-Bret, you might bump into me!

Cheers,

Mat

[Fedelmar]

Mat ... as you are aware I am working with Tim on the genealogy of the Fromelles boys ... I have noticed that several of the ones I have done were killed at Fleurbaix ... whereas the German reports in the service records state "fell in the vicinity of Fromelles".

Bright Blessings

Sandra

PS:

Hope you are using your book as a battlefield guide

[Mat McLachlan]

As I'm sure you're well aware, Sandra, there's often a multitude of names for the same battle and it can make the research a bit foggy. In my experience 1918 is the worst - the battles moved quickly compared to the earlier years and were often parts of larger actions, so identifying the place of death of a soldier can be more complicated than it first appears. 'Amiens' is the classic - because much of the August fighting was grouped under the Battle of Amiens, relatives often refer to their loved one as being killed at Amiens, even if he died fifty kilometres away.

The whole Fleurbaix/Fromelles confusion is so common I'm surprised it hasn't come up in our discussion before now (and I'm surprised I didn't think about it either!). Most of the material I've read from the immediate post-war years refers to the battle as Fleurbaix. One more piece to add to an already confusing puzzle.

And yes, you might just find a copy of Walking with the Anzacs in my back pocket this April! Let's just pray I don't run into any affronted Kiwis.

[Fedelmar]

It might surprise you Mat ... but I know next to nothing about battle histories ... or battalion histories for that matter!!!

I know bits and pieces but would never voice an opinion

My uncle was killed at Broodsiende and not much has been written post war about that. My grandfather was in the broad gauge railway ... absolutelty nothing has been written about them

I am sure if you run into any affronted Kiwis they will be happy once the purpose of the book is explained to them

Bright Blessings

Sandra

[Auimfo]

Just take their minds off your book by mentioning 'cricket' and 'underarm' in the one sentence.