Wrecktec Posted 13 March , 2008 Share Posted 13 March , 2008 Hi Guys Can someone please tell me what it would have meant for a requisitioned trawler to be fitted out as a 'Special Service' vessel. I'm thinking about the 161-ton CALEDONIA which was sunk by gunfire from UC 50 on 17 March 1917 ? Cheers Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Munson Posted 13 March , 2008 Share Posted 13 March , 2008 Ron - Colledge Vol.2, lists CALEDONIA sunk by mine off Northumberland Coast on that day, for what that's worth. Special Service / Q Ship / Decoy Ship from what I've read, were secretly armed but all had the appearances of defenceless vessels. A strategy to attract and trap U-boats. I suspect the fitting out of these vessels evolved. I'm sure there is still much that is not in the public domain about many of them. For instance at least one source claims that the reason the Skipper of Grimsby trawler King Stephen didn't rescue the crew of sinking Zeppelin L-19 was because the trawler was secretly armed as a Q-Ship, and after this incident her name was changed to LEDGER No 778. Many of these vessels had frequent name changes. I'm sure we don't know the half of it! I've looked at various documents on this subject at Kew and it seems to me there should be much more than that which is available. Cheers, Terry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joseph Posted 13 March , 2008 Share Posted 13 March , 2008 Ron, She was on her way to be fitted out as a Q ship when she was sunk, have a google for Q Ship's (Special service ship's) the story's are very good and they do explain what they were about. Regards Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrecktec Posted 13 March , 2008 Author Share Posted 13 March , 2008 Thanks Terry and Charles Yes, I suspected it would be something like that http://www.aberdeenships.com/browse.asp and Michael Lowrey say it was by gunfire from a U-boat and Michael has it down as sunk by UC 50. The commander was Rudolf Seuffer; he was lost with his crew later. Michael is an expert on WWI U-boats and sinkings so I'll go along with him. Along with another couple of guys, they have been researching the ships sunk and the submarine patrols for many years. Thanks again Cheers Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joseph Posted 13 March , 2008 Share Posted 13 March , 2008 Ron, The British archives state it was going to be a Special Service Ship, it would be interesting to know if this is mentioned in UC50's KTB. Regards charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadsac Posted 14 March , 2008 Share Posted 14 March , 2008 ALL, Special Service Vessel - beware of these being Q-ships & such ONLY. SSV could be `just' a Water service V. / Torpedo Recovery Vessel / Minesweep V. - as in ELFIN / NETTLE etc. Regards Sadsac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joseph Posted 14 March , 2008 Share Posted 14 March , 2008 Sadsac, So would a trawler converted to a minesweeper be classed as a Special Service Vessel? Regards Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrecktec Posted 14 March , 2008 Author Share Posted 14 March , 2008 Thanks for that Sadsac Charles The commander of UC 50 would probably have not been aware of the Coledonia being an SSV because it was just on its way to being fitted out. Cheers Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sadsac Posted 14 March , 2008 Share Posted 14 March , 2008 Charles, not too sure actually, but believe MOST trawlers converted to ??? remained as HMT(M) HMTS - as were PSM Paddlesweeper Mines - but do not take MY word for it !! Cheers Sadsac Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joseph Posted 14 March , 2008 Share Posted 14 March , 2008 Sadsac, Thanks, it does pose a well asked question though 'what what was a Special Service Vessel'? Regards Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted 16 March , 2008 Share Posted 16 March , 2008 In Dittmar and Colledge 'British Warships 1914-1919' Q ships are listed on page 126 as SUBMARINE DECOY VESSELS. On page 316 are entries under SPECIAL SERVICE VESSELS and these are not Q ships but yachts, tenders, ferries etc owned by the Navy. The format follows the headings in the Navy List of the time. However. On page 126 on Q ships it states .... the term Special Service Vessels was occasionally applied to them. Presumably to confuse us! They were also only known officially as Q ships ( Q24, Q25 etc) for a short period in 1915 before the Q & number was dropped when it was realised this reduced their secrecy. Aye Malcolm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrecktec Posted 16 March , 2008 Author Share Posted 16 March , 2008 Thanks Guys You never know unless you ask Cheers Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joseph Posted 16 March , 2008 Share Posted 16 March , 2008 Cheers Malcolm, The mist clears. Regards Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Lowrey Posted 17 March , 2008 Share Posted 17 March , 2008 OK, back to Caledonia. Yes, clearly sunk by UC 50. The basic outline of events: 3pm: UC 50 stops and sinks the tralwer Kestral, and takes her capitan prisoner. 4pm: Sights the Caledonia with the Gowan in tow. Caledonia is flying the White Ensign, but quickly hauls it down and surrenders. UC 50 takes the crews of both vessels on board. The circumstances do not allow for a colser inspection of the trawler. UC 50 scuttles the Caledonia and sinks Gowan with an 88mm shell hit. Kestral's captain joins the bulk of Caledonia and Gowan's crew in the boats. The submarine, however, takes Caledonia's skipper (described as a warrant officer in the RNR) and leading machinest prisoner. Initial interigation by the U-boat's crew suggests that Caledonia's purpose was tending harbor defense minefields. Gowan was to be taken in goverenment service thoug for what purpose was unclear. Best wishes, Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joseph Posted 17 March , 2008 Share Posted 17 March , 2008 To be chosen as a Special Service Vessel would mainly depend on the crew, the Trawlers were very much alike. When one was sunk the crew moved enmass to the new commision. Michael, A 'Skipper' was a Warrant Officer in the RNR. Regards Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrecktec Posted 17 March , 2008 Author Share Posted 17 March , 2008 Hi Michael Does the KTB give the position of sinking the two trawlers Caledonia and Gowan, I just have 'off Newton', which is between Coquet Island and the Farne Islands off Northumberland ? Cheers Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Lowrey Posted 17 March , 2008 Share Posted 17 March , 2008 The more I think about it, the more I wonder if there isn't an error here -- that the vessel en route to be converted into a Q-ship was the Gowan and not the Caledonia. Such a reading would make a lot more sense given UC 50's KTB entry. Ron -- sorry, no location for the sinkings are given. Charles -- The KTB uses the German word "Führer" (leader) for the officer commanding Caledonia, which I had not really seen before in this context. I presumed that this amounted to a skipper. Thanks for confirming that this. Best wishes, Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
historydavid Posted 18 March , 2008 Share Posted 18 March , 2008 Ron, extracts from Hepper: CALEDONIA, newly hired trawler for naval service (undefined), enroute to Lowestoft for fitting out, intercepted off Newton Point, Sunderland by UC 50 on surface, skipper taken prisoner, crew in boats, sunk by scuttling charges. ADM 137/339. GOWAN, newly hired drifter for naval service (undefined), like CALEDONIA had sailed from Aberdeen, bound for Lowestoft, intercepted in approx. 55.36N, 01.06W about 15 miles ESE of Longstone, Farne Islands, by UC 50 on surface, ordered crew to boats and sank by gunfire. One man died of exposure in boat before rescue. ADM 137/390. No mention of GOWAN being in tow. Best wishes David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrecktec Posted 18 March , 2008 Author Share Posted 18 March , 2008 Thanks a lot David There is no mention of Gowan being towed in 'Lloyd's WWI Losses' and she is listed further down the page from Caledonia, as 'fishing'. She was a motor fishing boat of 25 tons. Newton Point is also north of Coquet Island off Northumberland, which is about 50-60 miles north of Sunderland - - something wrong somewhere ? Only thing I can relate to the 'Sunderland' statement, is Seahouses, which is a few miles up the coast from Newton Point used to be called North Sunderland. Cheers Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrecktec Posted 18 March , 2008 Author Share Posted 18 March , 2008 The man who died was George Holdsworth Moat, a Deckhand RNR 14546.DA HM Motor Drifter Gowan killed 17.3.17 Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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