Help me decipher RMLI service record

[Chris_Baker]

I have the service record of a chap who served with the RMLI. I don't often go for things naval, but on this occasion stumbled into it as this man enlisted in the King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry and was whisked into the RMLI instead.

He enlisted in Morley in Yorkshire on 7 September 1914, and next day was in the Plymouth Division of the RMLI. Any ideas why?

He then spent the period up to 9 November 1914 (presumably) being trained. Where could this have taken place?

His next entry is "Victory, RM Brigade", which takes him up to 9 August 1915. Now I know he was wounded on Gallipoli on 4 May 1915, so I presume this entry relates to his time with the Plymouth Battalion. Any comments on this, anyone?

He comes home, recovers, goes back to his Bn and is wounded again, in France. Not quite so sure of the date this time, but it is either late January or earlty February 1917.

He comes home, recovers and then is posted to HMS Eagle. What was this, exactly? (Not the aircraft carrier of later years)

He then goes back to his Battalion for a third time, in March 1918, and sees out the war.

All comments, information, observations, etc helpful.

[Neil Burns]

hi Chris,

you may want to contact Yorts. He helped me tremendously with a RMLI grouping I was researching.

Take care,

Neil

[HERITAGE PLUS]

Chris

Mersey Division RNVR was established in Customs House, Liverpool in 1904 moving to HMS EAGLE, a 74 gun frigate at Brunswick Dock, in 1911. Mersey Division was mobilised in 1914 to form part of the Royal Naval Division, serving at Gallipoli, Vimy ridge, Passchendale and Cambrai. To avoid confusion with the new HMS EAGLE, the frigate was renamed HMS EAGLET in 1919.

RNHQ LIVERPOOL now a purpose built building at East Brunswick Dock is home to HMS EAGLET (RNR Merseyside) and RMR Merseyside so the connection lives on.

Dave

[Max]

Chris

This might be of interest http://freespace.virgin.net/jack.clegg/bar...y%20marines.htm

Andy

[Terry Denham]

The reference to 'Victory' is probably a reference to 'HMS Victory II' - ie Crystal Palace, Kent (now London) which was the RN Div training establishment.

[Max]

Explanation as to why KOYLI to RMLI transfer:

"As the Admiralty had an immediate requirement for recruits for their new Royal Naval Division, Naval Officers were despatched & toured the Army Depots calling for volunteers. Commodore Henderson RNVR, made a soapbox speech to the men at Pontefract who, after a couple of hard nights outside, responded willingly.

The 2500 Army transfers to the RNVR were split into three groups: KW's, KX's & KP's.

Approx. 1015 men were numbered KW/1 to KW/1015. 'K' = 'Kitchener'; 'W' denotes those intended for the four battalions of the 1st RN Brigade, RND (officially transferred 7/9/14).

Approx. 1002 men were numbered KP/1 to KP/1002. 'K' = Kitchener; but 'P' was for 'Crystal Palace,' the RND Depot where this batch were re-enrolled from Kitchener's Army 10/9/14.

Approx. 516 men were numbered KX/31 to KX/566. 'K' = 'Kitchener'; 'X' denotes those intended for the four battalions of the 2nd RN Brigade, RND (officially transferred 7/9/14).

An anomaly occurs in the 'KX' numbering system. 20 Bandsmen from Dundee, were enlisted with 'ZX' numbers, supplanting the 'KX' number blocks ZX/5 to ZX/25. Other men were also slotted in with 'ZX' prefixes supplanting the 'KX' (ZX/1 to ZX/4, ZX/26 to ZX 30, & ZX/519 to ZX539).

A further 600 men from 'Kitchener's Army' were transferred to the Royal Marines Light Infantry 16/9/14. The RMLI had just opened Short-service enlistment (men intended exclusively for the RM Brigade in the RND) & required a 'jump-start' to bolster their numbers. It was arranged for 600 Army Reservists/Recruits to be transferred to the RMLI. Most of the 600, had served only one day 'With the Colours' & had then been sent home to the 'Army Reserve.'

The 600 RMLI transfers came from two regiments: 200 from the KOYLI & 400 from the Nottinghamshire & Derbyshire Regt. (best known as The Sherwood Foresters). The 200 KOYLI recruits were transferred to the Plymouth Division RMLI & the 400 Sherwood Foresters were divided equally between Chatham & Portsmouth Divisions RMLI. Plymouth's regimental numbering system for their Short-service recruits began quite simply at PLY/1/S. This is also the case for Chatham and Portsmouth, beginning at PO/1/S and CH/1/S. Plymouth had already enlisted 11 volunteers for Short-service when their 200 KOYLI's arrived; therefore they occupied the number blocks PLY/12/S to PLY/211/S inclusive. Portsmouth had enlisted 30 men prior to their 200 allocation, so they were numbered PO/31/S to PO/230/S. Chatham numbered their 'Kitchener's Men' CH1/S to CH200/S. "

There you go.....clear as mud

I think Terry is right as some of the KOYLI recruits re-enrolled at Crystal Palace 10/9/14. (KP/No. Series)

Andy

[michaeldr]

Chris,

Can I second Max’s proposition that you contact John Morcombe who has a lot of experience with the Yorkshire lads who joined the RM/RND

Also, can I suggest that while the Crystal Palace was known as ‘Victory’ so were many other places. Somewhere, we have a thread which tries to interpret the RND system with various contributions from different Pals regarding this. EG: my grandfather’s discharge papers indicate his service with ‘Victory’ III, IV and IX which includes the Crystal Palace and Blandford. Pat Francis in her book “A Quiet Life” relates that “The next Day he passed his Field Training Drill and was formally registered by the Royal Marines (RM) Portsmouth Division as having joined Victory RM Brigade which carried Portsmouth marines and sailors on their books, indicating nothing of their whereabouts.”

29th January 1915 the RND was concentrated at Blandford, when orders were received for two battalions of Royal Marines [Chatham and Plymouth] to prepare for embarkation for the eastern Mediterranean. They left Blandford on Feb 1st and sailed on Feb. 6th.1915

Can you please reconfirm the date of his wound: 4th MArch or 4th MAy 1915 ?

4th March 1915 the Plymouth Batt. led by Lt-Col Godfrey Mathews landed two companies at each of the following; Kum Kale and Sedd el bahr. These were search and destroy missions, looking to take out guns and ammunition dumps missed by the previous naval bombardments [e.g. At Fort No. 6, seven out of nine guns were not damaged and only one eliminated completely.] However strong Turkish opposition was experienced and the forces quickly withdrew with casualties after 3 hours.

22nd March 1915; RND ordered from Mudros to Port Said, there to re-ship stores/supplies. 8th April 1915 ‘Braemar Castle’ sailed for Mudros with the Plymouth Batt.

Because of their experience on 4th March, the Plymouth Batt. were att. to the 29th Division for the landings at ‘Y’ Beach, together with 1st KOSB and a company of the 2nd SWB. 25th April 1915 the landings commenced at 0445 hrs and all were at the top of the cliff by c. 0630 hrs. The Turkish counter attack starts at c.1930 hrs and goes on throughout the night, after which the British withdraw from ‘Y’ beach by mid-afternoon the next day, 26th April, with 700 from 2000 as casualties.

29th April 1915, the depleted Drake and Plymouth Batts. are assigned Beach Duties

The main Turkish counter attack begins on the night of 1st-2nd May and continues until the 4th May 1915.

The fact that your man was probably on Beach Duty during that time in no way diminishes his chances of being wounded. Over-shoots from the attacking Turks, artillery fire from their positions on the peninsula or even from their bigger guns on the Asiatic side of the straits [known as ‘Asiatic Annie’]; any of these could account for his wounding on 4th May 1915.

Caveat: I have a few books on the RND, but for this, you probably need something a little more specialized e.g. Gen. Sir H. E. Blumberg, “Britain’s Sea Soldiers: A Record of the Royal Marines during the War 1914-1919” [Davenport: Swiss & Co. 1927]

With best regards

Michael D.R.

[Terry Denham]

Michael

The reference to 'Victory', as I said above, is probably to 'Victory II' which was specifically Crystal Palace and was the RND processing and training station.

The reference could be to one of the other 'Victories' but not likely in this case.

[Chris_Baker]

Fantastic stuff. Thank you, all.

[michaeldr]

He comes home, recovers, goes back to his Bn and is wounded again, in France. Not quite so sure of the date this time, but it is either late January or earlty February 1917.

Chris,

In July 1915 the Portsmouth and Plymouth Battalions RMLI were amalgamated in to the 2nd Royal Marine Battalion.

Re late Jan early Feb 1917:

Please see Douglas Jerrold, ‘The Royal Naval Division’ page 212

“The concluding days of January were marked by only two incidents outside the normal routine of stationary war. The first occurred on the night of January 24th…………….............The other incident occurred on the front held by the 2nd Marines, across the river, when a German advanced post was captured by Lieutenant Spinney (a Corps intelligence officer, temporarily attached to the battalion) and two bombers from the Marines Battalion. A similar attempt was made the next night by Lieutenant Spinney, accompanied by Lieutenant Wren, RNLI, but the results inevitably were less satisfactory, and, though many casualties were inflicted, the brave organizer of these adventures was mortally wounded.”

[Their next mention is on 17th Feb 1917 (too late?) again I recommend Blumberg for more details]

Regards

Michael D.R.

[HERITAGE PLUS]

Chris

Post Card showing HMS EAGLE now on sale on e-bay as lot 2223215651.

Dave

[michaeldr]

The reference to 'Victory', as I said above, is probably to 'Victory II' which was specifically Crystal Palace and was the RND processing and training station.

The reference could be to one of the other 'Victories' but not likely in this case.

Terry,

Sorry for not getting back to you yesterday

First of all, my caveat: whatever I know about the RND, I know even less about the RM. Thus I am open to correction; however at the moment my thinking about the ‘Victory’ is that it was just a convenient ship’s name against which to register these men.

In August and early September 1914 the Naval Brigades had been camped at Walmer and Betteshanger. Then in mid-September the Crystal Palace became the RND’s divisional depot, serving the growing numbers of the Naval Brigades who, being an entirely newly formed body, had no previous home. The same cannot be said however for the Marine Brigades, who in contrast, already had a long and distinguished history; or as Jerrold puts it

“The training of the Marine Brigades gave rise to no problems. When it was decided to incorporate it into the Naval Division, the only change considered necessary was the disbanding of the RMA battalion, and the formation of a fourth RMLI battalion [Deal Battalion]. This was done by drawing one company and one platoon from the battalions provided by the three Marine Divisions at Chatham, Portsmouth and Plymouth........................................................................

when they returned from Ostend, they went into active training at Portsmouth, till they were ordered overseas again, this time to Dunkirk, at the end of September.

These battalions had, of course, a large number of recruits to absorb, but they had at their disposal trained instructors and regular officers, and the machinery for barrack square training of the most orthodox character. They were thus, in effect, trained, both now, before Antwerp, and in the months following, independently of the rest of the division, of which they became an integral part only when divisional training began in January, 1915.”

This is why I am inclined to follow Pat Francis in respect of the RM and suggest that for them at this stage, the note ‘Victory’ was “indicating nothing of their whereabouts.”

With best regards

Michael D.R.

[Terry Denham]

Sorry Michael. 'Victory' was NOT just a convenient name.

May I suggest a copy of "Shore Establishments of the Royal Navy" by Warlow which lists the many thousands of such locations.

Each member had to be allocated to a ship for purposes of the Naval Discipline Act and therefore all shore establishments became 'ships' and had a real ship alongside to which their men were allocated - sometimes a hulk or depot ship, sometimes just a tender.

There were sixteen different 'Victories' over the years but all were specific locations. These locations ranged from Portsmouth, Goodings (Berks), Crystal Palace, Wantage,London, Petersfield, Southampton and Portland. Each had a specific task at the time of its existance. In some cases their 'real' ship was located elsewhere.

As this query involved the RM/RND, the 'Victory' mentioned here MAY be 'Victory II' at Crystal Palace which was the RN Div training depot 1914-1919. It was also an RNR depot 1914-1916 but that section was known as 'Victory VI'. 'Victory II' was reactivated in WW2 at Goodings, near Newbury, Berks.

It may be true that this man never saw Crystal Palace but it is likely to be the establishment upon whose books he was kept at the time.

[michaeldr]

Terry,

Thanks for those further thoughts

I don’t think that we’re so very far apart on this one after all

Pat Francis’ “Indicating nothing of their whereabouts”

sounds a lot like your

“It may be true that this man never saw Crystal Palace”

Yes of course there was a system

But without the Roman numeral, then it is not possible to say for certain exactly where the man was at that particular time

We can agree on that can’t we?

Best regards

Michael D.R.

[Terry Denham]

Michael

Quite right. I think we are saying the same thing but in a slightly different accent!

Cheers

[michaeldr]

Mine's a Geordie one, Terry,

And it wouldn't be the first time that it's caused problems south of Watford

Best regards

Michael D.R.

[Yorts]

His next entry is "Victory, RM Brigade", which takes him up to 9 August 1915. Now I know he was wounded on Gallipoli on 4 May 1915, so I presume this entry relates to his time with the Plymouth Battalion. Any comments on this, anyone?

He comes home, recovers and then is posted to HMS Eagle. What was this, exactly? (Not the aircraft carrier of later years)

From my understanding 'Victory' without a Roman numeral indicates the original base at Portsmouth. This was were all RMs sent for RND service (as indicated by 'for RM Brigade' or a similar annotation on a service record) were administered from, despite them not physically serving there. RMs sent here for duty at the actual base have no such annotation.

That 'Victory' was at Crystal Palace is a good suggestion, but for those RNVR records that I have examined, they all clearly indicate Victory II for Crystal Palace. As other bases with numerals are clearly marked on service records, I do not think that Victory referred to Victory II. This would be very complicated when using the RM service legders, as the clerks would not know on whose books the individual concerned was borne due to the number of possble HMS Victories.

As for HMS Eagle, I have a service record entry which shows a man served with the RND then was posted to Eagle. I know that from here he was transferred to defensively equipped merchantmen and was later bourne on the books of President III. I would suggest that some men were posted to HMS Eagle as a base from which to be transferred to a merchantman convoy leaving Liverpool as and when the need arose. After the convoy returned to the UK, the marine would return to HMS Eagle, and all the time would have been borne on the books of this base for pay purposes.

Now I stand to be corrected

Best regards,

Alex.

[Chris_Baker]

Explanation as to why KOYLI to RMLI transfer

What was this quoted from, Max? It's pretty authoritative, and I wondered what the sources of the info were.

[michaeldr]

Chris,

The quote is from John Morcombe's site here

Then click on 'Kitchener's Marines'

Regards

Michael D.R.

Edited 9 February , 2004 by michaeldr

[HERITAGE PLUS]

From the April 2004 issue of 'Navy News'