Territorials and Disembodiment

[carolm]

Hello everyone,

I was looking for some clarification regarding Territorial units and the process of Disembodiment.

Would a man who was in a Territorial unit at the beginning of the war, but later moved to either a Regular or Service Bn, still be regarded as a Territorial

at war's end? Would such a man be Disembodied or Discharged (or whatever the official term is for demobilization of non-Territorials).

Similarly, would a man (non-Territorial) who was posted to a Territorial unit after the 1916 changes be regarded as a Territorial when it came to being demobilized? Would he be Disembodied? Was disembodiment something that happened to the entire unit, or was each man dealt with separately depending on his type of enlistment?

One of the reasons I ask is that now the MiCs are available on Ancestry I have been able to check the cards for many of the men in the battalion I'm researching (5th Gordon Highlanders). Most of the early enlistments (e.g.those with Stars) who weren't killed or discharged early through wounds, have "Disem" and various dates in 1919. But some have "Disch" and a 1919 date. (Unfortunately most later ones have nothing.)

Any help would be appreciated.

Carolyn

[joseph]

Carolyn,

"Would a man who was in a Territorial unit at the beginning of the war, but later moved to either a Regular or Service Bn, still be regarded as a Territorial at war's end? Would such a man be Disembodied or Discharged (or whatever the official term is for demobilization of non-Territorials)."

After the middle of 1916 the Territorial men I have moving to a regular or a service battalion where transferred and renumbered completely, if they moved back they kept the regular number and subsequently discharged.

Regards Charles

[Guest AWOL]

Hello Carolm

I Am a bit confused by this myself, and I have noticed some four and six-digit numbers amongst those who died with service battalions. I can't understand why they would retain their Territorial numbers if they had being moved from a Territorial unit to a service battalion. I thought it was policy to change when moving. I don't know about disembodiment or those who survived.

Regards,

Peter G

[Seadog]

This may be of interest

Disembodiment cert here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/glosters/1296...57601071707940/

Norman

[PPCLI]

I can't understand why they would retain their Territorial numbers if they had being moved from a Territorial unit to a service battalion. I thought it was policy to change when moving.

Hi Peter,

Renumbering of territorial soldiers in early 1917 resulted in these men having unique regimental numbers. Consequently, there was no need to renumber a territorial soldier when he moved to a Regular or Service battalion. This is why many men with territorial numbers can be found on the respective regimental medal rolls as serving with non-territorial battalions. However, my research hasn't revealed any 4-digit territorial men serving with non-territorial battalions; if a territorial soldier transferred before March 1917, he should have been given a new non-territorial number and if after March 1917, he would already have his new 6-digit number.

This is my understanding of the system. No doubt, if I am wrong someone will be along shortly to put us right.

Stuart

[Guest AWOL]

Hi Stuart,

This is beginning to make sense. Many of the territorial men I have come across died with service battalions during 1918. They also tend to be six digit numbers. I have been reading the other thread on numbers very closely. It's also very complicated.

Many thanks

Peter

[carolm]

Thanks for your input and observations guys. And special thanks Norman for showing the Demobilization form which shows four options on demobilization – Discharge, Transfer to Reserve, Disembodiment, Demobilization. This made me think of even more complications to my original query.

I have details of several men who were neither disembodied nor discharged, but discharged to Class Z, which I imagine is the option “Discharged to Reserve” on the demobilization form. All of the men in this category enlisted as Territorials in 1914. (none were pre-war). Their MiCs only show that they were Gordons and all have 5th Bn 1917 numbers (240000 +).

Chris’s article on Demobilization on the mother site states:

“As long as the Military Service Act was enforced, all men who was liable for service under the Act who was not remaining with the colours in the regular army, or who had not been permanently discharged, or who was not on a Special Reserve or Territorial Force Reserve engagement, was discharged into Class Z Army Reserve and liable to recall in the event of a grave national emergency. His designated place of rejoining was shown on his Protection Certificate and Certificate of Final Demobilisation. “

Does this mean the Territorials had their own Reserve (Territorial Force Reserve) separate from Class Z or does Territorial Force Reserve just mean “Territorials” in general?

I have also attached a list from a page from a medal roll that shows all the men who were originally Territorials (numbers with suffixes /4, /5, etc) were disembodied, and those from service battalions (prefix S/) were Transferred to Class Z (unless discharged earlier – probably due to injury). Sorry it's so small - had to make it fit.

However I’ve also attached a copy of a MiC showing a man discharged to Class Z. He joined the 5th Gordons in about November 1914, at much the same time as 2556 Pte Sorrie, who was disembodied on 21/3/1919.

I wonder why the difference. Any thoughts?

Cheers

Carolyn

[PPCLI]

However I’ve also attached a copy of a MiC showing a man discharged to Class Z. He joined the 5th Gordons in about November 1914, at much the same time as 2556 Pte Sorrie, who was disembodied on 21/3/1919. I wonder why the difference. Any thoughts?

Hi Carolyn,

It is likely that Cpl Robert Brown transferred to a Regular or Service battalion sometime in 1917 or 1918. By this time in the war, he would keep his territorial number but would no longer be part of the Territorial Force, so would be discharged to Class Z. A check of the BWM/Victory medal roll would confirm any such transfer.

Cheers,

Stuart

[Tom A McCluskey]

Carol,

The Highland Regiments all used the same form of Regimental numbering. At the start of the war it was possible to have two soldiers with the same number. One in the Regular Army and one in the Territorials. I have an example of one guy in the Black Watch sharing the same surname and number . It looks like, quite wisely, the Gordons TF have put the Battalion number after their Regimental number: '/4', '/5', etc.

I have drafted a series of examples below (Privates A to E), the numbers and characters are fictitious but the situations are ones that can occur. Anyway, at the start of the war, the Territorial Force was embodied into the British Army - basically made full-time and to serve within the constraints of whether they had signed the Imperial Service Obligation, or not. Albeit embodied into the Regular Army, certain part of a T.F. soldier's contract were honoured, for instance, their engagement, and initially, their right to serve in the unit [battalion] that they joined. This even caused problems in 1916 with the amalgamation of some TF units (regardless of the 1915 Army Order to serve anywhere). Once the war was over, there was no need for the Territorial Force to over-implement the Regular Army, and its troops became Disembodied (Generally early in 1919). Which meant they would go home, and go back to their pre-war situation as a part time soldier.

Any TF man that served out his 4 year engagement became Time-ex (Time Expired); this was honoured and meant that he could go home (for nearly the first two years of the war). Remember the outlay of the terms for a TF soldier's engagement is legislated in the Territorial Forces Act 1907. At the point of becoming Time-expired they could sign on again (with the TF), or they could sign on with the Regular Army, usually a 3 year/duration of the war contract - and as I said before, or go home and many took this option [see William Linton Andrews book: Haunting Years page 180]. A few examples for you:

Pte 'A' joins the 4th Gordon Highlanders TF on the onset of the war; he is given the 4 figure number 2345. He is still about in January 1917, and is renumbered 240012 [the '24' would indicate '4th Battalion' in the renumbering - the renumbering being TF-wide]. In August 1918 he become Time-Expired, he signs on again with the TF and finishes the war with the number 240012. Having completed the war, he goes to Germany as part of the Army of occupation for a few months and as part of the normalisation process and having served at the front for so long with the TF or he has a job waiting for him he is Disembodied, and is back to being a Part Time soldier.

Pte 'B' joined the 4th Gordon Highlanders TF in late 1911, and was given the 4 figure number 1234. He sees out 1915 at the front and after Loos becomes Time Expired, he does not sign on again and goes home. The Military Service Act catches up on Pte B and he is made to join the colours again. He goes on a short service contract of 3 years or duration of the war, which as a member of a Highland Regiment is identified by the prefix 'S/'. He is now numbered S/4567. He is badly wounded during the attack on Beaumont Hamel in November 1916, and in 1917 is no longer fit for service. He is discharged.

Pte 'C' was in Special Reserve of the Gordon Highlanders and is called up in 1914, he is given the number 3/1234 and sent to the 1st Bn The Gordon Highlanders in the BEF. In late 1916 he is wounded and in 1917 he is sent to the Infantry Base Depot in France, he is sent as a reinforcement to the 4th Gordon Highlanders. He keeps his number 3/1234, an on cessation of hostilities, and his duty, is transferred back to the Reserve (Z), in 1919.

Pte ‘D’ was conscripted by the Military Service Act in 1916 and is put on a short service engagement and issued the number S/6780. He is sent to the 4th Gordon Highlanders as a reinforcement and sees out the war with them. After the armistice, he is kept on in the Army of occupation, and transferred to a regular battalion. When he is eventually sent home in late 1919, there is a final sting in the tail, he is transferred to the Reserve (Z).

Pte ‘E’ is a TF man in the 4th Gordon Highlanders he serves as 2346, and is renumbered 240013. He is wounded in 1916 and returns to the front in 1917 and is sent to the 1st Bn The Gordon Highlanders. He keeps his 6-figure TF number. He signs on again in 1918 and is Disembodied in the spring of 1919 and goes home.

Aye

Tom McC

[carolm]

Thanks Tom and Stuart for your additional information.

Stuart, you said: "It is likely that Cpl Robert Brown transferred to a Regular or Service battalion sometime in 1917 or 1918. By this time in the war, he would keep his territorial number but would no longer be part of the Territorial Force, so would be discharged to Class Z".

Thanks for that. It's exactly what I wanted to know - that is, if a man was transferred to a non-Territorial unit he became a "non-Territorial".

Tom, thanks for all your examples - they were very interesting and seemed to cover just about evert contingency. (I would mention that the 240001+ numbers were 5th, not 4th battalion.)

I'll certainly look out for the Linton Andrews book you mentioned. I haven't heard of it before.

I was interested that you gave an example of Time-Expired Territorials in 1918. I thought that option ended with one of the Army Acts of 1916. All my examples of time expired men are for 1915 and early 1916. Was the "re-signing" an automatic process later in the war - ie without the option to go home?

Thanks for all your help.

Carolyn

[Tom A McCluskey]

Carol,

Absolutely right, 5th Bn, I was having a mad moment writing everything down , 200000-240000, in the Black Watch was 4th Bn too. A Territorial that moved to a Regular or New Army battalion remained a Territorial as his his engagement (the contract that he has signed with the colours) has not changed. Once he has completed that engagement, or his circumstances have changed, he may change his engagement. I would say that the majority - that I have looked at - have stayed on a TF Engagement or moved to a Short Service - not many signed on as Regular soldiers.

The article with William Linton Andrews is March 1916, I am unaware of an Army Order keeping men in the T.F., however, I could see that if one was promulgated, it would make sense. However, I am aware of an Army Order that ensured that T.F. men could serve in any unit. Not in Haunting Years, but discussed at the time, was what to do with the men unwilling to join the resulting Composite Battalion, The Black Watch, from the amalgamated 4th & 5th Bns.

Aye

Tom McC

[PPCLI]

Hi Carolyn,

Now having done what I should have before my last post, i.e., check my database, I find that the territorial soldiers who were transferred to Class Z reserve had all been serving latterly with either the Labour Corps, Machine Gun Corps or Royal Engineers. Men who transferred to other non-territorial battalions within the same regiment were disembodied. So, back to square one with Cpl Brown. As Tom pointed out, he may have chosen to change his terms of service or the entry on his MIC could be a mistake (not unheard of). Sorry to have muddied the waters.

Stuart

[carolm]

Once again thanks for your comments Tom and Stuart. Darn it Stuart, I thought I had it worked out. I guess the only solution is to see if I can get hold of the medal rolls and see if it gives a list of all the changes of unit. The problem of course is I’m not just looking for one man. However I suppose if I can get details of a couple I might be able to see the pattern.

Tom, I have to apologise for my imprecise use of terms! I’m afraid I’m one of those people who tends to call bits of military equipment “thingumys” and “doodads”. I think this caused you to misunderstand what I was referring to (and vice versa!). For “Army Acts”, please read “Military Service Acts”. What I was getting at was the regulation that stopped Territorials being allowed to quit after their period of service (4years +1) had expired. I quote here from a book “A nation in arms” by Ian F.W. Beckett p. 135:

“Similarly the Acts [Military Service Acts of 1916] also eliminated the provision of the Territorial and Reserve Forces Act which enabled Territorials to seek their discharge at the end of their terms of engagement. Some 159,388 pre-war Territorials would have been entitled to discharge under normal peacetime conditions between 1914/15 and 1916/17, although the four-year term was automatically extended by one year in war.”

I've never heard of men changing their terms of engagement. I thought that after these Military Service Acts all distinctions ended, except, obviously, the conditions on demobilization.

Thanks

Carolyn

[Tom A McCluskey]

Carolyn,

Just from what I have looked at, it looks like those that joined the war later (Derby Men, Conscripts, etc.), and of course Regular soldiers, would be kept on at the end of the war - for the Army of the Rhine. Most of the time-served territorials, that I have looked at, have been sent home early in 1918, especially those with jobs to go back to i.e. the 7th (Fife) Bn, The Black Watch TF, contained a lot of coal miners, many of these were released early.

Aye

Tom McC