Help with map reference please

[bmbab]

I wonder if anyone can help me with the location of a map reference.

I have been trying to work out where Pte William Lee Stoker 25939, 7th Bn East Yorks Reg, died. He is buried in Hermies Hill British Cemetery having died on 29th March 1918, but I noticed on the CWGC website that some burials had been moved to this cemetery. I therefore asked CWGC if they held any further information. Their response is that he was previously buried at map reference Q.1.A.3.2 Could anyone help me identify where this location was, so I can compare with the war diary.

Thanks for any help

Alan

[joseph]

Alan,

The full reference could be 57D SE1 Q.1.A.3.2., I do not have that trench map one of the experts may have it. I am not aware the war diary for the 7th EYR on the 29th Mar 1918 exists. Without the map I would say the reference is about 5 kilometers west of Thiepval Wood. Hope this helps, the Battalion was divided into two parts at the time, I will see if I can find anything more specific to the events of the 29th.

Regards Charles

[johnreed]

Please find attached map Q1 A 3 2 is marked.

John

[AlanCurragh]

Would it not be more likely to be 57C SE1 Q1 A 3 2? This would place the spot in Havrincourt Wood, and graves were moved from there to Hermies Hill.

"The following were among the burial grounds from which British graves were removed to Hermies Hill British Cemetery; Havrincourt Wood British Cemetery, about 1 kilometre South-West of Havrincourt village. It contained the graves of 70 soldiers from the United Kingdom who fell on the 20th November, 1917, the first day of the Battle of Cambrai, and all but 5 of whom belonged to the Infantry of the 62nd (West Riding) Division."

Here is the trench map, with the spot just below the bottom of the "Q"

Alan

[AlanCurragh]

And the same spot on a modern map - this time marked with a flag

[joseph]

Im still of the opinion its 57D this is a contemporary account; maybe Alan knows which map

After Beaulancourt, where we passed over our old Battalion football field to Gueudecourt, again to take up a rear guard position for the night 24-25th. As night fell we could see by the Very lights how near we were to Ruhrleben and a little bit of black bread and no cheese. They showed us in the apex not of a half circle but of a very narrow eclipse! It was here that the Brigadier-General took his Brigade out on tip-toe. There was only one way of retreat open through Flers. but we learned that early in the evening a German raiding party had entered Flers and captured the biggest part of our Brigade Staff. Was the route still open? The betting was against it. However, the Brigade in perfect silence, sneaked down the Flers road and turned the fatal corner which was still open; Another hour of marching and we were clear and with leisure to collect stray tins of bully beef and occasional biscuits which were lying about Next morning, 26th, found us again in the front line at Le Sars on ground honeycombed with shell holes of the 1916 Somme battles. At daybreak there were no enemy on the ridge in front, but they were pressing on our left and on our right- They soon began pushing forward on the same system. Machine gun teams first to commence and to maintain an intolerable fire and enable their other troops to advance. The artillery on both sides had diminished by this time very much and the machine gun held supreme sway Again we were in the front of a salient with the 2nd Division on our left and the 63rd on our right. All the morning the Germans were closing in with machine guns, and l could see the glistening barrels of at least six opposite our Battalion front The line was semi - circular and I could observe by field glasses a big extent of the line in front and on the left. The situation was well in hand in our part of the front when I happened to he looking through field glasses at the line on the left. about a mile away, and actually saw the line break. Parties of Germans burst through and established machine guns on high ground on our left and in our rear. and instantaneously made our position untenable. The outburst of enemy machine gun tire at this moment to our front and on our left was terrific. and the York and Lancaster's, who were being fired at from behind, swayed back· It was here, and here only, that the retirement was a run and not a dignified saunter that it had been for the previous mile. The order was given to retire to a position 1000 yards in rear and everybody present will never forget the first two hundred yards, which was like crossing a rifle range during rapid fire practice. It was here that Major Gale, M.C·, Capt. Hirst, and several other officers were wounded, and a few officers and others were taken prisoners. The remainder, however, lined up with the 63rd Division on the right, and held successive positions throughout the day from Faucourt L’Abbaye·-Le Sars—Courcelet—Pozieres. Here the Battalion got divided into two parts; the l7th Division received orders to withdraw to Contalmaison Wood and half the Battalion went in that direction, but the remainder, under the Colonel and Adjutant with Captains Field and Bainbridge were collected by the Brigadier and taken to assist any Brigade which was doing any fighting, stayed in the line another thirty six hours and left us in complete ignorance of their fate for a couple of days. Meanwhile the remainder collected and reorganised at Henencourt, moved forward again on the night of the 28th to Senlis, against a position in front of the place on 29th and on the night of 29th went once more into the line in front of Bouzincourt. Arriving in the support position about 23.00 on 29th we found that as the front line had been taken, we became ipsofacfo the front line. That night it was a question once more of digging in. Next morning another tentative attack was driven off. The day of retirements had now finished and troops were ordered to hold on. The next two days passed without any great event, but on the fourth day the regiment was ordered to retake some posts lost by the —- Regiment who had taken over the front line. In this attack the Battalion was to be assisted by four tanks. These, however, did not render the assistance expected, and although the objectives were reached in part it was found to he unable to he held, and the regiment was ordered to retire. It was here that Lieut. Tonkin did magnificent work in holding on to his objective for two hours although practically surrounded by a force of the enemy greatly superior in numbers. The night of the 1st and 2nd April the Battalion was relieved and went out to Mirvaux after a continuous spell of trenches for twenty-eight days. Colonel King returned from England, rejoined and took over command from Colonel Thomas, who left to command a neighbouring Battalion. We are now in divisional rest. if anyone gets any rest these days, and have received reinforcements from the 8th Battalion, amongst whom is Captain Williams,Chilton, and many other old friends.

Regards Charles

[AlanCurragh]

You could well be right, Charles. The other OR from the 7th East Yorks who died that day is buried in Bouzincourt, NW of Albert, and a lot nearer 57D than 57C. I was just working on the proximity of 57C to Hermies.

Assuming 57D is correct, still curious as to why the body was moved to Hermies....

Alan

[bmbab]

Dear Charles and Alan,

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you and thanking you for your efforts. I've been pouring over maps trying to work out what happened.

The War Diary of the 7th East Yorkshire Regiment is in TNA in WO95/2003. Here are extracts for the days around the end of March 1918. This is my summary not a transcript.

9th-14th Mar 1918 Bn. Moved from BERTINCOURT to the line occupying the support position, and occupied this position, providing working parties each night, until the 14th. On the 14th they went into the front line on the right sector of the Brigade front.

They occupied this front for 5 days (until 18th) but “nothing of an important nature occurred”. On the night of the 18th they dropped back to support lines.

20th March Bn stood to practically day and night in anticipation of an enemy attack

21st Shortly after 3.30am the enemy opened a heavy bombardment along the whole front and also used gas requiring the men in the line to stand to in Box Respirators for a considerable time. Following the bombardment, the enemy attacked during the morning on both brigade flanks, but with no attack against the brigade. Some patrol activity in front of the EYR positions were promptly driven in by rifle fire.

22nd March The Bn recived orders to withdraw to the Slag Heap and they took up positions in the old British line in GONG trench. This was held until 2pm. An attack against D Company was driven off. On retiring the Bn fell back to BAXWELL AVENUE, which they held for the whole of the night.

23rd March MAXWELL AVENUE held until noon, when they had to fall back to the next slag heap, then later through 2nd Division to VELLIWOOD line. From here they fell back to ROCQUINY and bivouacked overnight.

24th March Bn again went forward to position near BARASTRE. Enemy continued to attack and 5 tanks were called to cover retirement of the Bn after which the Bn covered the retirement of the tanks. Bn then fell back through BEAULANCOURT to LE SARS. Midnight went forward again in front of LE SARS and held on all night. On evening of 24th one company of the Bn became separated from the Bn and were called on to provide rear-guard for 52nd Bde. Orders were received to retire to COURCELETTE where on arrival orders were received to move down to HENENCOURT. On arrival there the Bn were not there and billets were taken for the night.

25th March All stragglers were collected and Bn reformed. Orders received to move forward to SENLIS. Bn moved forward to position in front of BOUZINCOURT and relieved Northants. The position was very obcure and fighting patrols were sent forward while the Bn dug in.

26th March Bn took up position at SENLIS MILL in front of SENLIS.

Diary now is confused here and date reverts to 25th March. Perhaps this refers to the actions of one part of the Bn during the split.

25th March Enemy delivered heavy attack on both flanks of Bde causing troops to fall back but 50th Bde held firm, though both flanks were exposed and seriously threatened. The Bde held on until nearly surrounded and at 11pm were compelled to fall back. B Company of the Bn were the last to retire. During the retirement the position of the Bn became detached. Brigadier Gen. Yatman (?) took charge of the detachment along with others belonging to 10th W Yorks and Dorsets at BEAUMONT. These men formed into a composite company with a strength of 148 men. The composite company was attached to 2nd Division and took up position on high ground behind BEAUMONT and held on until next morning when enemy attacked. The retirement continued and troops fell back on AUCHONVILLERS. The next night New Zealand troops came to the relief. The portion of the Bde who had been cut off had orders to retire on MAILLY MAILLETT where they bivouacked in the wood behind the village. Next morning they marched back to SENLIS where they found the remainder of the Bn had been in the line for 24hours in front of BOUZINCOURT. They rejoined the Bn in the line.

The next entry is for 31st March On the morning of 31st March Bn was ordered to attack an enemy position at 5.30am. Rain was falling heavily and the Bn moved forward. The Bn reached its objective, but the troops on either flank were held up and after holding our position for some time we were compelled to fall back to the position we had previously held.

Bn relieved at night by 52nd Bde and moved back to billets in HENENCOURT arriving about 1am

There then follows a list of officers killed in recent actions.

From this I'd have to guess along with Charles that the position of the burial was nearer to Thiepval wood - on the 29th according to the War Diary the fighting would be well away from Havrincourt. But then like Alan I don't understand why he was re-buried in Hermies. I had spotted the problem that the site of his burial was seemingly behind German lines on the day he died, and that was why I contacted CWGC in the first place. I'd hoped that the initial burial would help sort out what had happened. It seems very unfortunate that the map reference happens to provide this level of ambiguity with one possibility being near a place they were fighting and another close to where he was buried. I did wonder if there had been a mistake in his date of death but it is recorded as 29th March by both CWGC and SDGW. I also wondered what would have happened if he had been captured, seriously wounded and died a few days later in a German CCS or FA. Would the CWGC know anything about who had buried him, and would any of the records be able to tell that this had happened, especially in the confusion of the rapid German advance. Perhaps we'll never know. Maybe I should contact CWGC again, just to see if they had not only a map reference but a refernce of WHICH map.

Any further thoughts gratefully received. Thanks for your help

Alan

[joseph]

Alan,

Thanks for that, just a thought, my guess he would be part of the battalion put under the command of the Brigadier General took a who took a Composite Battalion and helped the 2nd Division. I do not have access but in this case their movements would be documented in the 50th Brigade War Diary. As they were up near Beaumont, the map co-ordinates given by John would fit, this is in the valley at the rear of the high ground an ideal place for an aid post.

Magic rats co-ordinates are 10 miles north in the 59th Divisions area, I feel it unlikely a Brigadier would move that far away from his command with 148 men.

Regards Charles