Mock Tanks - Help Please

[Gunner Bailey]

I'm currently restoring a number of photos I have in an old family (not mine) photo album that I acquired during the 1970's. The photo album seems to cover the period 1900 to about 1920. It includes a number of pictures of family members in uniform, some taken in France with French troops.

The pictures in question are of some mocked up WW1 British tanks (made of wood and canvas), each of which has a small round turret on top. The event seems to be some form of military open or sports day held either during WW1 or soon after. These 'tanks' were clearly moved around the field by hand.

The photos in the album are almost blank they have faded so much, but photoshop has restored the image. Please excuse me for not publishing it on an open forum at present.

My question - Are these mock ups known about or is this something new that I have found?

All the soldiers in the photos have the same cap badge. Here's the best I can do (This comes from a 600 DPI scan).

Gunner Bailey

[wainfleet]

Tank Corps?

[centurion]

Can we see the dummy tanks?

Dummy tanks were used by both sides for a number of purposes

• Recruitment/fund raising
• Training
• Decoys/deception
• Targets

The Australians in particular appear to have been very prolific in the production of various dummy tanks for the first three purposes. Australian wood and canvas tanks were actually used during at least one attack to convince the enemy that the attacking force had more tanks than was in fact the case. These were operated by a crew inside pushing them around. I have found photos of dummy British heavy tanks (Australia, Britain, Germany, USA) and dummy St Chamond (France, USA). German WW1 dummies appear to often have been made entirely from wood.

The only dummies with turrets I have found have been post WW1 primarily but not exclusively German mounted on 2 seat touring cars.

[Gunner Bailey]

Centurion

Thanks for your reply. I'm cautious about publishing something on a public internet site that will almost certainly be a new unpublished photo, perhaps of something quite rare. Do you have anything you could let me see first (even by PM)?.

Gunner Bailey

[centurion]

Enclosed a post war dummy german training tank, a 1918 dummy st Chammond with turret and some dummy tanks used by the Americans for training

[4thGordons]

HERE is a link to a picture and short description of the Australian tanks mentioned

and HERE is a section in Child's book describing use in various locations

Chris

[centurion]

Probably doesn't help the original query but here is another Australian dummy under construction (this time back in fourecks). There were at least 5 different pattern dummy tanks produced in Australia.

In addition to the dummy types mentioned in my last post I should add that Germany produced at least two dummy A7Vs

[Gunner Bailey]

HERE is a link to a picture and short description of the Australian tanks mentioned

and HERE is a section in Child's book describing use in various locations

Chris

Chris

Thanks very much for these links. The canvas tank in the first link has similarities to the photos I have but the tanks are more angular and have a small round turret.

The photo album, although having overseas photos in it (mainly France and Spain) does not venture to Australia.

Gunner Bailey

[Mark Hansen]

This photo is at the AWM listed as a WWI German built Whippet dummy. Obviously, it is intended to be a Renault copy rather than a Whippet. Is this a bit closer in appearance to your mystery tank?

[Gunner Bailey]

This photo is at the AWM listed as a WWI German built Whippet dummy. Obviously, it is intended to be a Renault copy rather than a Whippet. Is this a bit closer in appearance to your mystery tank?

Mark

That's brilliant ! Can that be converted into a garden shed? In which case I'll have one.

However my mock tanks are based upon the British shape, without sponsons and with a turret.

Gunner Bailey

[NigelS]

The History Of The London Rifle Brigade 1859-1919: FIRST BATTALION: Part V. July 6 – Oct 9, 1916 gives for August when the LRB were at Cauchy:

On 24th orders were received for intensive training to begin at once, and the 56th Division heard that, with the Guards Division, it had been selected to make an attack in conjunction with tanks, which were to appear for the first time. From that time to 3rd September daily practices took place, occasionally with the tanks though generally with dummies, but the training and the orders were kept very secret, and special precautions were taken to prevent any information about the new engines of war leaking out to the enemy. In view of the large number of reinforcements which had not been initiated into the attack with liquid fire , introduced so successfully by the Germans at Hooge, a special demonstration of that form of warfare was given during this period. Col. R. B. Campbell, the bayonet fighting expert, also lectured to the battalion in his own wonderful way, inspiring every man with thrilling hopes of the use he might be able to make of the weapon.

The description of the tank training and liquid fire along with the bayonet demonstration gives an interesting contrast between "new" and the more traditional military technologies of the day.

NigelS

[Gunner Bailey]

Thanks Nigel

It's interesting that dummy tanks were used quite a lot in France and I was very surprised to hear they were actually used in action.

GB

[centurion]

The British used dummies in action in France - see following extract from The Story of the "9th King`s" in France.

"THE BATTLE OF CAMBRAI.

No particularly arduous duty was assigned to the Battalion in connection

with the operations on the 20th November. To divert the attention of the

enemy from other troops who were attacking the Knoll, a few hundred yards

on the right, the Battalion was ordered to place a dummy tank and dummy

men out in no man's land in front of the vicinity of the Birdcage, and

shortly after zero these were put in operation by means of wires.

Naturally the Battalion came in for a good deal of the retaliatory fire of

the enemy, but few casualties took place. Incidentally the enemy claimed

to have repulsed an attack on this front, from which it follows that the

dummies had been efficacious."

I enclose a link to an early WW2 example of a British dummy in use for training , I believe this was in use in the mid war years Dummy target does this look like the dummy in question?

In my previous posting I erroneously ascribed a dummy under contruction as being in Australia in fact after looking at another photo Aussi Dummy in the AWM I now realise that it was in France

[Battle Bowler Bill]

I am currently doing some research in to the 9th Kings Liverpool Reg and this bit about the dummy tanks being used at Cambrai is just what I was looking for, has anyone got anything else on this incident? Did it fool the Germans? Where was the 'Birdcage'? Also can anyone tell me how to tell the difference between someone who was in the 1/9th from someone in the 2/9th by their service number? In other words I am trying to find out if Pte. Walter Bell was in the 1/9th or the 2/9th and his service number was 53343. If he was in the 2/9th he would have missed Cambrai.

[centurion]

Birdcage was sometimes used as a term for an area containing snipers. It also seems to have been applied to any position surrounded by large amounts of barbed wire. The Allied fortified camp at Salonika was called the Birdcage. It was also a term applied to a brothel but I suspect that this was not the case in the example quoted.

[bob lembke]

NigelS;

Very interesting account of training. Would it be possible for you to give a page citation for that exerpt? Would be interesting to know if they were using Allied or a captured German apparatus. Somewhere I have an example of a demonstration of the latter in which the demonstrator managed to put a Brit officer alight, to the amusement of some. British doctrine of the time was that the flamethrower was an ineffectual weapon, with the stream of flame and burning oil best avoided by bending over, so one wonders as to the purpose of a realistic demonstration.

Some time ago someone posted, on this forum, I think, photos of a dummy tank being used on a training field for a German storm battalion.

Thanks,

Bob Lembke

[Battle Bowler Bill]

Thanks for that Centurian. The Great War is such a huge subject, not only have we got to sort out all the facts and figures, we also have to work out the everyday slang and soldiers terminology. Now there's an intersting subject for a discussion, Trench Slang?