Pte Thomas Jones snubs Prince of Wales 1920

[geraint]

This is a splendid photo taken in 1920 of Great War veterans lined up on the Square, Ruthin, to meet Edward, Prince of Wales. The photo was taken on the actual second that Thomas Jones, refused to shake hands with the Prince of Wales, and told him that he was upset by the treatment given to veterans by the government at the end of the war. Notice his body language, head down, arms defiantly crossed; Edward's extended arm. Notice the body reactions of his co-veterans - leaning forwards, aware that something different is happening. Look at the Mayor's reaction. His words, apparently were that he and his fellow veterans were not given "a home fit for heroes, nor a cow and four acres as promised." He also condemned the way many of his fellows "were locked up in the workhouse on 2/6 a week".

I think that this is one of the most wonderful Great War picture ever taken. Thomas Jones was born in 1900, served with SWBs and awarded MM in 1919, also awarded a gold watch by the town. In 1923, he sold his medals and gold watch for beer money.

He re-enlisted in WW2 serving in Italy. 1945, he married and has one son still living here.

Through a strange quirk of fate, his gold watch and MM are in the hands of two local collectors and are to be returned to the son in the immediate future.

It's a brilliant story ehh?

I would be very interested in members comments on the treatment of veterans at the end of the war.

Geraint

[Nigel Marshall]

Hi Geraint,

That is a great story and great picture to record it. I wonder if the photographer was aware beforehand that Mr Jones would be making his protest?

If not it was a remarkable coincidence. Rather a brave thing to do given the seniority of the Prince of Wales and the fact that the age was still one of reverence for those set above us, either by accident of birth or by promotion, earned or otherwise. Obviously a man of unshakeable principle, driven by compassion for his destitute mates and not by cynicism, otherwise he would not have served in the second war. I presume he would have been above the call up age and therefore volunteered?

Is there any further reading about Mr Jones available, preferably on the WWW?

Thanks for posting this ,

Cheers,

Nigel

[geraint]

Hi Nigel.

Absolute coincidence. Even his mates didn't know that he was going to do this.

The bit about Italy is uncertain. His son knows nothing about this. I have a photo of him in WW2, but it seems to be a Home Guard uniform.

Another point of interest - the man on the extreme right - Thomas Bushel was one of the first to volunteer into the Tank Corps as a driver. One of the few to survive!

I've a couple more photos of Twm MM as Thomas Jones was fondly referred to, and the gold watch story is fascinating.

I'll post them once I dig em out of the files! (I'm not a techno buff, and took about half an hour to get the original photo attached!)

Geraint

[SiegeGunner]

Thomas Jones may have been 'pushing at an open door'.

From "A King's Story", the autobiographical memoirs of the Duke of Windsor, spring 1919 - "As I began to move about the country, it dawned on me that people were discontented and disillusioned. The service men not yet discharged were angry over the clumsy demobilisation programme; those who had been demobilised were disgruntled over the lack of jobs and homes; the disabled were bitter over inadequate disability pensions". And later "I had seen enough to convince myself that the trouble went far deeper, that the social unrest was related to the slaughter and misery that the first "people's war" had inflicted upon the whole population".

[geraint]

Mick

That is an excellent piece relevant to Thomas Jones. I'd not come across it before. What must be remembered is that Edward did play an active part in the front line, and could, I assume, empathise with the ordinary Joe Soap soldier.

Geraint

[tom compton]

hello ."A cow and four acres of land" Did they realy promise that i have never heard of that before.tom

[geraint]

Tom

Quoted from the words of Lloyd George from his many Welsh language speeches in Wales circa 1917/early18 as a moral booster. May well have been pacifying the rural hinterlands. I think that they were put into a full British context during the Khaki Election at war's end.

Geraint

[geraint]

I'm going to bump this one up. Any other similar stories out there?

 

[BillyH]

I haven't got any similar stories Geraint, but i'm very glad you 'bumped it up'  -  I enjoyed reading about Thomas Jones.

 

BillyH.

 

[GWF1967]

19 hours ago, geraint said:

I'm going to bump this one up. Any other similar stories out there?

 

Great photo, great story. Many thanks for posting.

[ian Christopher jones]

Hi @geraint

Thomas jones was born 1898 not 1900

Not sure if it's true about watch and medals getting sold for beer money as my mother told me Thomas's wife sold them in 1982 to help pay for funeral of their son who was also called thomas.

Their only living son in ruthin (howell) sadly passed away in March 2023.

Ian jones

[geraint]

Hi Ian. Welcome to the Forum! Good to see this old posting bought to life. I knew Howell very well, and am greatly distressed at his passing. He was seen on a daily basis walking his dogs around the town. I spoke with him often about his father, and his recollections of Thomas Jones's stories.  He had very little mementoes of his father apart for three photos of his dad in the Home Guard in WW2. Was your mother related to Thomas's wife? Or a neighbour or friend? 

[ian Christopher jones]

Thank you for the welcome.

My mother (mary) was howells sister and Thomas's daughter, she sadly passed away in 2013. I don't really remember thomas (tiad) as I was born in 1972 and he passed in 1974,

I've only seen 2 pictures of thomas, the one that you have put on here (my dad's got same picture at home) and another picture at my dad's house

[ian Christopher jones]

[Uncle George]

I read Andrew Lownie’s ‘Traitor King’ (2021) very recently and he’s described as being very short and slight, a “miniature man”. Yet here he is, one of the tallest there. The men he’s presented to are stood on something which makes them taller, and even then … 

The OP says,  “Notice his body language, head down, arms defiantly crossed.” I don’t see these things at all. His arms appear to be at his side, and he’s looking at PoW in the eye.

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

1 hour ago, Uncle George said:

I read Andrew Lownie’s ‘Traitor King’ (2021) very recently and he’s described as being very short and slight, a “miniature man”. Yet here he is, one of the tallest there. The men he’s presented to are stood on something which makes them taller

The internet says he was 5'7".
(Source: Internet Movie Database -IMDB) - I have no idea how they know???

I don't think the PoW is one of the tallest in the image, although the line of men curves towards the camera, making the closer men look taller.
Having said that, I'd say the PoW is taller than Jones, but the man on Jones' left is taller than both.

I don't think either that the men are standing on anything other than a white line. It, nor the ground behind it are higher than the foreground.

With respect to the later photo, it certainly shows Jones in WW2 era battledress.

I can't make out the badge on the beret/bonnet. Perhaps @FROGSMILE will know?
 

[FROGSMILE]

54 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

With respect to the later photo, it certainly shows Jones in WW2 era battledress.

I can't make out the badge on the beret/bonnet. Perhaps @FROGSMILE will know?
 

Auxiliary Military Pioneer Corps of WW2 Dai (adopted from the previously disbanded Labour Corps of WW1).  The pioneer’s recruited a large number of WW1 veterans early in WW2 and a substantial number of them were formed into an ad hoc combatant unit to act as an organised defensive block to the approach to the Dunkirk beaches to give as much time as possible for the BEF to get away.  They famously used arms handed over by the Welsh Guards who were embarking.  The survivors returned to the U.K. and handed the weapons back to the Guards having withdrawn with them in good order once ordered to do so.  A number more were earlier on sadly lost in the tragic sinking of the HMT LANCASTRIA. 

His headdress is the General Service Cap that was indeed modelled on a ‘bonnet’.  It replaced the p1937 Field Service Cap in 1943.  He is wearing the noticeably chunky plastic version of the cap badge, a unique feature of ww2 insignia.

@ian Christopher jones there is a website for the old Pioneer Corps which I recommend.  My former colleague, Lt Col (Retd) John Starling has developed a database recording the pioneers of WW2 and the webmaster at the website can advise how you might look up the details of your family forebear: https://www.royalpioneercorps.co.uk/rpc/index.htm

Edited 27 April by FROGSMILE

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

39 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Auxiliary Military Pioneer Corps of WW2

Thanks Mr F.

Plastic eh? That's a new one on me.

[geraint]

Thomas Jones is the man standing underneath the B of the national Provincial Bank on St Peter's Square Ruthin. There is no pavement and he is not raised. He is looking down. Larger copies of this photo were publicly shown in at least two locations in Ruthin. The Bank in question became Nat West and a large copy was in the old manager's office until the bank closed recently. The other was in the public bar of the Anchor Hotel which closed about ten years ago. His son Howell, and numerous others recognised Thomas Jones, and the story concerning the PoW was well known amongst his peers. The second photo posted Ian, is excellent. It gives him his true features as a man.

I really don't want this thread to become a history of his WW2 activities which becomes off topic. He was, as you may know, a character and a half, and to me he represents the spirit of the Ruthin lads who went to war in 1914.

The person who has his watch, contacted me about 15 years ago. The man who bought his MM was also a Ruthin man who delighted in buying local medals and was a very good friend of mine. Unfortunately he died last year and I've no idea as to what has happened to his medal collection.

Howell was not really interested in his dad's achievements, nor his medal or watch, and had few fond recollections. I had intended to bring both watch, MM and the few photos together to make a WW1 centennial display at Ruthin Library, though the Library were reticence due to the lack of security which they could provide for a gold watch and an MM.

Mayor Lecomber of Ruthin, (a wealthy industrialist whose three sons enlisted, and one died); in 1914 announced that he would personally pay for a gold engraved watch to each Ruthin man awarded a gallantry medal, He did just that with Thomas Jones and all the other men awarded a gallantry medal who hailed from the three parishes of Ruthin. Lecomber is in the photo - standing in dress on the extreme (our) left.

Da iawn ti Twm MM

Edited 27 April by geraint

[FROGSMILE]

11 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Plastic eh? That's a new one on me.

The vast majority of corps/regimental badges were produced in plastic Dai, and in a subdued brown or dull grey colour.  They were deeply unpopular with military traditionalists, as you might imagine, and also only the most dedicated collectors have ever paid them much mind.

Edited 28 April by FROGSMILE

[jay dubaya]

Ah, the bakelite cap badge... I've got a handful of these somewhat delicate oddities.

[michaeldr]

13 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

I don't think the PoW is one of the tallest in the image, although the line of men curves towards the camera, making the closer men look taller.
Having said that, I'd say the PoW is taller than Jones, but the man on Jones' left is taller than both.

The PoW came from a family who were not notably tall: his great-grandmother Victoria was only 5' 0”. However, compared to the working class men lined up before him, then he had benefitted from a good diet, sports and a comfortable, clean environment, none of which those men would be familiar with.
The normal minimum height requirement for the British army was 5' 3”. That for the AIF was I understand, 3” more. The letters and recollections of Anzacs who met their first Britisher either in Egypt or Gallipoli in 1915 often refer to their surprise at the poor physique of their British comrades in arms. Again the difference can be accounted for by diet and environment.

 

 

Edited 28 April by michaeldr

[geraint]

On 28/04/2024 at 08:22, michaeldr said:

The PoW came from a family who were not notably tall: his great-grandmother Victoria was only 5' 0”. However, compared to the working class men lined up before him, then he had benefitted from a good diet, sports and a comfortable, clean environment, none of which those men would be familiar with.
The normal minimum height requirement for the British army was 5' 3”. That for the AIF was I understand, 3” more. The letters and recollections of Anzacs who met their first Britisher either in Egypt or Gallipoli in 1915 often refer to their surprise at the poor physique of their British comrades in arms. Again the difference can be accounted for by diet and environment.

 

 

That certainly was a topic of acute concern. I don't have my references to hand, but the Rowntree Report on the physical state of the English working class at the turn of the century was extremely powerful on the War department and governing classes. Something like 65% working class men failed the army medical criteria - and that was set at a fairly low bar. Didn't this influence the Liberal Government to try and improve conditions, and the 1909 People's Budget was to improve the physical, educational and general conditions of the workers?

[FROGSMILE]

7 minutes ago, geraint said:

Didn't this influence the Liberal Government to try and improve conditions, and the 1909 People's Budget was to improve the physical, educational and general conditions of the workers?

That is my understanding too.  It is worth cross referencing the Rowntree Report with the Army’s own review of the medical standard of recruits following the 2nd Anglo/Boer War (the Fitzroy Report).  Despite a decade to try and put things right the situation had changed little by the outbreak of war in 1914 and seemed to be the principal reason why apparently slightly less than a quarter of men of military age in the British population served in uniform during WW1.  See: https://history.port.ac.uk/?p=2264#:~:text=Following the end of the,known as the Fitzroy Report.

Edited 30 April by FROGSMILE

[Uncle George]

On 28/04/2024 at 08:22, michaeldr said:

The PoW came from a family who were not notably tall: his great-grandmother Victoria was only 5' 0”. However, compared to the working class men lined up before him, then he had benefitted from a good diet, sports and a comfortable, clean environment, none of which those men would be familiar with.
The normal minimum height requirement for the British army was 5' 3”. That for the AIF was I understand, 3” more. The letters and recollections of Anzacs who met their first Britisher either in Egypt or Gallipoli in 1915 often refer to their surprise at the poor physique of their British comrades in arms. Again the difference can be accounted for by diet and environment.

 

 

I cannot remember the details, but I recall reading more than once of British surprise at how tall the Australians were.

The Lownie biography I quoted upstream: he mentions the journalist Colin Brooke’s’ description of his 1938 meeting with the Duke and Duchess of Windsor: “ … a small, tight-lipped dark-haired woman, very regal in her carriage, followed by two nondescripts and then by a miniature of a man with blond hair, a very red face, and the general demeanour of a happy grocer’s boy.”

Lownie tells us that the DoW “stood five foot, five inches and he maintained the slimness of his youth through careful dieting.”

In the photograph of Thomas Jones he is above the average height of the men present (it seems to me). Thomas Jones does not appear to have his “arms defiantly crossed”.