QOR Glasgow Yeomanry in Gallipoli

[michaelmclaren]

Hi

I am researching a relative Sjt James McLaren 2443 Queens Own Royal Glasgow Yeomanry, His MIC states Theatre of War first served in 2b Date of entry 23/6/15. Could this only be Gallipoli? The war diaries of the QORGY show them serving in Gallipoli (with 52nd Division) but not until October 1915, they did arrive, however, in Egypt on 22/6/15.

Can any Gallipoli experts shed any light on what may have happened here, could some members of QORGY have arrived in Gallipoli earlier? or am I on the wrong track.

Sjt. McLaren survived the war although he was wounded ending his service in the Labour Corps

Any help appreciated thanks

Michael

[Guest]

hello michael

here is a brief history of the regiment,

"August 1914 : in Glasgow. Part of the Lowland Mounted Brigade.

RHQ and C Squadron moved to Egypt, landing 22 June 1915. In October 1915, joined 52nd Division as dismounted troops, on Gallipoli. In May 1916 RHQ left the Division and moved to France, joining V Corps Cavalry Regiment. C Squadron left the Division 21 August 1917, joining XXI Corps Cavalry Regiment and later LoC Troops, in Palestine.

A Squadron joined 11th Division on 2 June 1915, moving to 24th Division a few days later. Left to join V Corps Cavalry Regiment on 21 May 1916.

B Squadron joined 9th Division in France on 13 May 1915. Left to join V Corps Cavalry Regiment on 10 May 1916.

The Squadrons of the V Corps Cavalry Regiment were sent for infantry training at No 21 Infantry Base Depot at Etaples in August 1917. The Glasgow Yeomanry component (approx half a battalion) joined the 18th Bn, Highland Light Infantry on 23 September 1917.

2/1st

Formed September 1914. In March 1916, RHQ, A and B Squadrons joined 65th Division; in February 1918 they were absorbed into the 1st Reserve Cavalry Regiment, at the time in Ireland. C Squadron joined 64th Division, and was disbanded in 1917.

3/1st

Formed in 1915. Remained in United Kingdom until absorbed by 4th Reserve Cavalry Regiment in early 1917."

regards

william

[PPCLI]

Can any Gallipoli experts shed any light on what may have happened here, could some members of QORGY have arrived in Gallipoli earlier? or am I on the wrong track.

Hi Michael,

It is likely that Sjt. McLaren remained in Egypt until the QORGY landed on Gallipoli in October 1915. Not saying that I'm a 'Gallipoli expert', but I have researched loads of men who served with various units within the 52nd (Lowland) Division and most of their 'Theatre of War' entries are '2b' - whether they should be or not. These men can be divided into three categories:

1. Gallipoli was their true 'Theatre of War' disembarkation and from date stated, e.g., arriving at Mudros on 29th May 1915, then landing on Gallipoli on 6th June. Theatre and date of entry= 2b on 6.6.15. Correct.

2. Gallipoli was NOT their true 'Theatre of War' disembarkation. However, they did serve on the peninsula, but from a later date than stated, e.g., arrived Alexandria, Egypt on 4th June 1915, landed on Gallipoli on 14th June. Theatre and date of entry= 2b on 4.6.15. Incorrect.

3. Gallipoli was NOT their true 'Theatre of War' disembarkation and NEVER even set foot on the peninsula. A number of men (just over 50) who made up the transport section in each infantry battalion remained in Egypt (near Alexandria) for the duration of the Gallipoli campaign. However, their theatre and dates of entry all state '2b' and for example, 6.6.15 or 4.6.15. Incorrect.

I think Sjt. McLaren's MIC is an extreme example of category 2. He probably isn't an exception for the QORGY; other 1915 Star QORGY men will probably have similar MICs.

Hope this helps,

Stuart

[PPCLI]

He probably isn't an exception for the QORGY; other 1915 Star QORGY men will probably have similar MICs.

Or maybe not! I have looked at the MICs on Ancestry of a number of 1915 Star QORGY men and they mostly state '(3) Egypt on 22.6.1915'. However, I think that I now see where the confusion lies. My previous post gave three categories because I was trying to keep the explanation simple and clear. However, the entries stated on MICs was often contradictory for men who transferred to other infantry regiments or corps. Checking the MICs, I noted several men given September dates and entry in '(1) France'. These men had transferred to either the HLI or Royal Engineers. It may be a similar case with Sjt. McLaren having transferred to the Labour Corps.

Stuart

[michaelmclaren]

Thanks to William and Stuart for these replies.

If I understand correctly then if a man remained with the QORGY the theatre and date of entry on the MIC are likely to be correct. However if he transferred to another unit then this information may become confused leading to slight variations. I wonder if this was a common problem with dates of entry, therefore making them unreliable?

I feel sure that Sjt. McLaren did serve in a combat zone, as family history says he was wounded with shrapnel and he did receive a Silver War Badge.

Thanks again

Michael

[PPCLI]

Hi Michael,

Your summary about my interpretation of dates and places of entry for the QORGY is correct. Whether my interpretation is correct is open to debate. I know that I can provide proof for battalions which I have researched quite thoroughly, but would be happy to be 'put right' by any forum QORGY expert.

I feel sure that Sjt. McLaren did serve in a combat zone, as family history says he was wounded with shrapnel and he did receive a Silver War Badge

I don't doubt that for a minute - just saying that evidence suggests that he wasn't at Gallipoli from June 1915. I'm sure he was there from autumn till evacuation.

As a matter of interest, could you tell us the date of his discharge please? Just asking since his Labour Corps number is quite high, suggesting a 1918 transfer (some forum members should be able to narrow that down to a specific month/couple of weeks). I'm asking in relation to when/where he got his shrapnel wounds. If it was only a few months before his transfer to the Labour Corps, then I would have to be questioning the numbers/units given on his MIC. It's just that a large proportion of QORGY men who served at Gallipoli were eventually transferred to the 18th Battalion, HLI (as shown by William, above) in Sep 1917. The first casualties of this group started to appear in Oct/Nov 1917. To me, that could fit with a 1918 transfer to the Labour Corps.

I'm not really wanting to complicate matters further, but I know of many cases of men ending up in the Labour Corps where the LC medal rolls do not show all their overseas service units or numbers. Some of the entries in the LC rolls appear to give unit/regt no. of original overseas unit and LC number only. I have dozens of examples of territorial soldiers who were renumbered (4 to 6 digits) in March 1917, wounded between April and November 1917, transferred to the LC (with high 5***** and 6***** LC numbers), but are only shown on the LC medal roll with their original 4-digit number (I have casualty lists from The Scotsman showing their 6-digit numbers). I wonder if the QORGY men who served at Gallipoli and later transferred to the LC had similar anomalies with their medal roll entries.

A good example of a mix-up is the MIC for Hugh Paterson:

Queen's Own Royal Glasgow Yeomanry, 350657

Labour Corps, 478152

The 350657 obviously is an 18th Bn. HLI number, but the entry has been mixed up.

I also notice that when you search for men who served with QORGY and the Labour Corps that the vast majority only have these two units shown (which is maybe fair enough). However, when other units are shown, it is when they have served in a different Corps (Engineers), rather than infantry regiment. One exception is Thomas Hope, 2383 QORGY, who so happens to have served in the Royal Engineers - his HLI number is given.

I realise that I have spent most my evening putting together a rather rambling reply to your query, but I am just trying to work out where and when a QORGY man who served at Gallipoli would have picked up a shrapnel wound that saw him transferred to the Labour Corps in 1918. I just have the feeling that something is missing (on his MIC) somewhere along the line, and have used an example of an anomaly which I have previously noted regarding Labour Corps medal rolls to illustrate a potential scenario.

I am busy for the next few days, but will respond to any comments/queries you may have as soon as I get a moment.

Cheers,

Stuart

[michaelmclaren]

Stuart,

You are quite right to question whether something is missing from the MIC. There is no good reason to suppose that the wounds Sjt. McLaren received were received at Gallipoli and may well have been later, in fact it sounds more likely.

I recently managed to travel to Kew where I looked at the war diary for 1/1 Glasgow Yeo. from 22/6/15 until 6/1/16. I was surprised to find that the names of many ORs are mentioned being wounded or killed as I thought normally only officers would be mentioned by name. There is, however, no mention of Sjt. James McLaren which may reinforce that he wasn't wounded here.

I was unable to find a service record. His Labour Corps number was 621021 and date of discharge given as 16/4/19. It would be very helpful if anyone can draw any conclusions from the numbers.

Thankyou very much again for all the time you have spent helping with my research

Best Wishes

Michael

[PPCLI]

I was unable to find a service record. His Labour Corps number was 621021 and date of discharge given as 16/4/19. It would be very helpful if anyone can draw any conclusions from the numbers.

Michael,

Got to rush, but just to say that his Labour Corps number could date around end July/early August 1918.

620934=15.7.18

621021=?

621088=19.8.18

621140=30.8.18

As usual, there seem to be a number of discrepancies, so the above is a tentative guideline only.

Stuart

[michaelmclaren]

Stuart

Thanks for your speedy reply re Labour Corps service numbers. Even allowing for discrepancies this is convincing evidence that I am missing a big chapter in this man's service record.

Would I be correct from your information that he most likely joined 18th Bn HLI in France late 1917 probably being wounded and transferred to Labour Corps mid 1918?

I am very grateful to forum members for being able to add so much detail to the small amount of info I originally had.

Kind Regards

Michael

[PPCLI]

Would I be correct from your information that he most likely joined 18th Bn HLI in France late 1917 probably being wounded and transferred to Labour Corps mid 1918?

Hi Michael,

I would say that the above is one possibility, with the other being that he was a C Squadron man and so remained in the east with the 52nd Division. The Long, Long Trail states that 'C Squadron left the Division 21 August 1917, joining XXI Corps Cavalry Regiment and later LoC Troops, in Palestine.' Both these scenarios are following the family story of him being wounded and tying this in with a 1918 transfer to the Labour Corps. Of course, the third scenario is that he was wounded at Gallipoli and spent the next (almost) three years in the UK before being transferred to the LC.

Whatever the scenario, he was still serving in 1918 and so would have been re-numbered in March 1917: Renumbering of the Territorial Yeomanry Looking at the numbers allocated to the QOR Glasgow Yeomanry (95001-100,000) and comparing old and new numbers, it would appear that Sgt McLaren's new number would have been either 96328 or 96329. The new numbers were issued in a strict ascending numerical order. Unfortunately for you, there are a number of men in the region 2430-2460 who don't appear to have served overseas. Between the men with numbers 2427 (95322) and 2445 (95330) only eight men appear to have been still serving in 1917 - out of these four (including James) were transferred (LC, HLI, Corps of Hussars & Military Foot Police) and don't give 953** numbers. Another, 95327, must have served overseas later in the war because no 4-digit number is given. So, depending on whether #2444 was still serving in 1917, then James would have been re-numbered 95328 (if yes) and 95239 (if not). Usually the re-numbering scheme can be very helpful in working out previous/future numbers, but it does not appear to be the case with the men going from the QORGY to the 18th HLI. It certainly wasn't done in numerical order. It may (but probably not) be worth your while doing a spreadsheet of the transfer of QORGY men to the 18th HLI to see whether you can see any sort of pattern. If nothing else, it will show all the 'missing' 350*** HLI numbers in the range of QORGY transferees (seems to be approx. 350420 to 350680). If you do this, please PM me and send me a copy.

I did find a service file example of a B Squadron QORGY man who only has his original 4-digit number (2976) and an August 1918 Labour Corps number (568132). There is a form in his file which states that he was admitted to a hospital in England in August 1917 while on short leave from France. The form gives his number as 95682, but this does not appear on his MIC. Just giving this info to back up my previous research on men listed on the LC medal rolls.

What to do next? If he was transferred to the HLI and wounded, then it is likely that he will be listed in a volume of the HLI Chronicle. I think that there is a full run of these in the Royal Highland Fusiliers(?) Museum in Glasgow. Not sure if that's handy for where you are based. I would definitely search the local newspaper of the time - that is where I find a lot of info on men whose service files no longer exist. If he is mentioned it will give a date of wounding (or narrow down the time frame) and place (France/Palestine). If Palestine, you'll know not to waste your time with the HLI Chronicle.

If you have any queries about the above, let me know.

Cheers,

Stuart

[michaelmclaren]

Stuart,

Thanks again for the fantastic amount of information you have provided. It is amazing the information you can obtain when you understand the numbering systems.

Can I ask, when examining service numbers of QORGY men for example what source of information are you using to obtain these numbers? Is it best to use the NA website? I guess you can get the service numbers without having to download the MIC.

I think you are right to suggest looking in the local papers as I can see that when a soldier is mentioned, lots of clues can be obtained. The problem, of course will be narrowing down the dates. Would I be correct in thinking that the SWB rolls do not carry information about the date of a wound?

With many thanks again

Michael

[PPCLI]

Michael,

Just to let you know that I have edited a line in my previous post since it stated the exact opposite of what I found. Paragraph 2, line 10 should read, 'It certainly wasn't done in numerical order.' i.e., the re-numbering of the men transferred to the 18th HLI doesn't help in working out any missing men from the QORGY nominal roll. Maybe the paragraph will make more sense now!

Regarding numbering systems - any analysis of such systems must be treated with extreme caution since they are full of pitfalls. At best, a large database can help identify trends and fill in gaps, while at worst, the comparison of only a couple of numbers can send you off on a wild goose chase. For example, my KOSB battalion database enables me, in most cases, to give dates for enlistment/transfer to within a few days spread. On the other hand, quite often you see on this forum someone stating that a territorial soldier must have served overseas in, say, the 1/9th HLI since his number is 6-digits and starts 330***. In fact, it is only by checking the medal rolls that such a statement can be made with complete confidence. From early 1917, a soldier with such a number could have served with any battalion in the HLI

....when examining service numbers of QORGY men for example what source of information are you using to obtain these numbers? Is it best to use the NA website?

Yes, I use the NA DocumentsOnline:WW1 Campaign Medals database (I don't think there is a practical alternative) and no MIC download is necessary. It will be a case of entering glasgow AND highland light into the 'Corps' text box and 350* into the 'Other Keywords' text box. You can also do a similar scheme to get the new 6-digit 1917 numbers, i.e., glasgow into the 'Corps' text box and 95* into the 'Other Keywords' text box. You can then compile a spreadsheet of: Surname; Given name; QORGY no.; QORGY re-number; HLI number. I would order it by ascending original 4-digit QORGY number, not alphabetically by surname. YAfter that you can always 'sort' by name etc and look for patterns. Of course, you will soon find yourself the local GWF expert on Glasgow Yeomanry numbering and accordingly, be inundated with enquiries. If you have any other points/queries, just drop me a PM and I will do my best to help.

....looking in the local papers .... problem, of course will be narrowing down the dates. Would I be correct in thinking that the SWB rolls do not carry information about the date of a wound?

Sorry, I thought that since you had been to Kew you had a copy of his SWB roll entry. The units that I have researched, mostly lowland Scots, do not have this type of wound/date information. It will be interesting to see whether his entry states discharged due to wounds or sickness. In saying this, I am not casting doubts on him being wounded, just that family stories are not always accurate. I am speaking from experience in researching two of my great uncles - both 1st KOSB at Gallipoli, then transferred to Western Front in March 1916. One was discharged in Dec 1916, gassed and shot in the arm, and his big brother supposedly, went 'all through the war with hardly a scratch'. My research shows that 'hardly a scratch' translates to wounded (bullet wounds) in the field twice (Langemarck, Aug 1917) and Lys (Apr 1918), and POW from April 1918. To show their value, most of that information was published in the local newspaper.

I am tending towards Sgt McLaren serving for the duration with the QORGY at Gallipoli and in Palestine. I think it more likely that the Labour Corps medal rolls would omit his renumbering, rather than leaving out a different unit completely. Also, the men who I have researched with similar LC roll anomalies have all (I think) been territorial renumbered soldiers serving in Palestine at the time of their transfer. Of course, that should be taken with a pinch of salt since that is, in the main, the only category of men that I have researched in any depth.

I will stop there since I know that all this renumbering malarkey can frazzle the brain quite quickly. All I can say is read the above through a couple of times and the bits that aren't clear (I hope some of it makes sense) you can ask me to explain better/further. Of course, it all depends on how far you want to go with it. Personally, I would give it a good shot: local papers (starting June 1918 and work back a year); HLI Chronicle (if you can make it to Glasgow); and the spreadsheet (can do in comfort of your own home - may or may not help, but will help you get a clearer picture of the numbers involved and who went where).

As long as you don't start having numbering nightmares, you'll be okay!

Stuart

[PPCLI]

I have searched The Scotsman's Archive for wounded QORGY in the period Oct 1915-March 1916 to cover all Gallipoli casualties, but no sign of Sgt McLaren. In fact, there were very few returns of wounded for the unit - single figures only. If you could give me the names of those wounded that are mentioned in the war diary, it would be interesting to see if I could find them in the casualty lists in The Scotsman. From little snippets, it appears that the QORGY was attached to the 1/4th KOSB. This battalion suffered so heavily in the 12th July charge that it didn't really take part in any later engagements at Gallipoli including the small actions, such as extending trench systems. Maybe that is why the QORGY casualties were so low.

Cheers,

Stuart

[DMcNay]

Michael,

If you're near Edinburgh, you might want to visit the National Library of Scotland. The Scottish Yeomanry regiments published a joint regimental magazine while they were in Egypt. There's not a lot of information in there, but there's reports of sporting tournaments and suchlike. There are some names mentioned in these. It might be worth having a look.

regards,

David

[PPCLI]

Continuing on the publications theme, it may be worth requesting "The Queen's Own Royal Glasgow Yeomanry, 1848 - 1948" by Thomas Galloway (publ. 1948) through the inter-library loan scheme.

Stuart

[michaelmclaren]

David and Stuart

Thanks for you replies. I live near Glasgow so Edinburgh a definite possibility (a bit easier than Kew!). These publications look like they would certainly be worth a look, so thanks for that.

Stuart I will need to read your your posts several more times to get my head round the renumbering, but I think I get the general idea so thanks for your careful explanations. This would certainly make an interesting project, just to see what was thrown up by the numbers.

I will give you some detail from the QORGY war diary as I think you will find it interesting but please keep in mind that some of the writing is very faint and hard to make out so names etc may not be spot on:

C SQDN 1/1 GLASGOW YEO.

22nd June 1915 Port Said-Disembarked and joined details of 52nd Div

27th Aug 1915 Port Said-2nd Lt Murray K.G. embarked for England on SS Molna on being invalided

25th Aug 1915 Port Said-2275 Pte. Phillip J invalided to England 28.8.15

18th Sept 1915 Port Said-2nd Lt Barclay E joined for duty from 2/1st Glasgow Yeo

18th do do do do-2263 Pte. Johnstone R do do do

3rd Oct 1915 Alexandria-Embarked on SS Hilonian(?) to join 52nd Div on Gallipoli Peninsula

10 Oct 1915 Mudros -Sailed for Cape Helles and disembarked at 10pm

14-16th Oct 1915 Cape Helles-Officers and NCOs attached to 157 bde in firing trenches for instruction

17th Oct 1915 Cape Helles-Headqrs, Machine Gun Section and 6 Sqdn attached to 157 Infantry Brigade for instructions in trenches

20th Oct 1915 Cape Helles-Leut + Adj A.A.S. Black wounded by shell fire

21st Oct 1915 " " - Lt. Col K.H.M. Conn** 1/1st Glasgow Yeo. assumed command of 4th Battn Royal Scots Fusiliers(T.F)

22nd Oct 1915 Cape Helles-2717 Pte. MacMillan P.C. killed in action by gunshot wound

22nd Oct 1915 " " -2714(?) Pte. McGlinchey(?) I(?) wounded in action by gunshot

24th Oct 1915 " " -Headqrs Machine Gun Section & 6(?) Squadron(?) returned to rest camp from trenches

30th Oct 1915 " " -Orders received from 155 Bde that 6 Sqdn Machine Gun Section and Headqrs would be attached to 1/4th Battn K.O.S.BORDERERS

31st Oct 1915 Cape Helles-Squadron, Machine Gun Section & Headqrs joined 1/4th K.O.S.Brs in the trenches

7th Nov 1915 " " -Squadron, Headqrs & Machine Gun Section returned to rest camp

14th Nov 1915 " " - do do do proceeded to trenches for duty

16th Nov 1915 " " -2716 Pte. McLeod D. wounded by shell fire

16th Nov 1915 " " -1191 Pte. McGregor A (RAMC) wounded by shell fire

18th Nov 1915 " " -2425 Pte. Neill A. killed by gunshot wound in action

19th Nov 1915 " " -2200 Pte. Granger K. killed in action

19th Nov 1915 " " -2424 Pte. Lees G. wounded in action

19th Nov 1915 " " -1964 Pte. Mitchell J. wounded in action

26th Nov 1915 " " -1800 Cpl. McFarlane J. struck off the strength on departure for home. time expired

28th Nov 1915 " " -Proceeded to rest camp on completion of tour of duty in trenches

5th Dec 1915 " " -Sqdn. Hd.Qrs & Machine Gun Sec proceeded to the trenches for duty

8th Dec 1915 " " -2787 Pte. Muir B. wounded in action

12th " " " " -2081 Pte, Whyte G. wounded in action

13th " " " " -2950 Pte. McKenzie A. wounded in action

19th " " " " -1841 Pte. Brodie J(?) killed in action by gunshot wound

20th " " " " -Squadron returned to rest camp

22nd " " " " -2293 Sgt. Com****(?) K. Invalided ****(?) on HM** Tague(?) on 22.10.15

24th " " " " -1940 Pte. Love R. wounded by aeroplane bomb

24th " " " " -1814 Cpl. Gray R. struck off strength on departure for home time expired

24th " " " " -1866 Pte. Stevenson G " " " " "

26th " " " " -Sqdn & MG Sec proceeded to trenches for duty

27th " " " " -2429 L/C Black W.K. wounded in action by shell fire

29th " " " " -Lt & Adj Black A.A.S. " " " "

" " " " " -2356 Sgt. Harper A. " " " "

" " " " " -1496 " Bonnington G " " " "

" " " " " -1997 L/* Harper J " " " "

" " " " " -1936 Cpl. McCallum W.H. " " " "

" " " " " -2725 Pte. Smith D(?).L(?) " " " "

30th " " " " -2nd Lt Cassels J. wounded in action

" " " " " -2373 Sgt. Bell W.R. " "

" " " " " -7670 Pte. Mackie G. " "

31st " " " " -2345 Stevens J. " "

" " " " " -Squadron was relieved in the firing line 2245 & proceeded to rest trenches

1st Jan 1916 " " -2725 Pte, Smith D.G.(?) dies from wounds received in action on 29/12/15

2nd " " " " -Major Wardle J.R. killed by shell fire in action

8th " " " " -Squadron, MG Sec &Hd Qrs Disembarked at 0900 at Lancashire Landing

I hope the above is of interest, I would certainly be interested in any comments you have.

Regards

Michael

[PPCLI]

Hi Michael,

It has taken me longer to get back to you on this than I intended. The main reason that I asked for the names of men mentioned in the war diary was to check against these against the official casualty lists printed in The Scotsman. I wanted to see how closely the casualty lists compared to the war diary, with the intention of being able to determine whether there was a chance that maybe some names had been missed James was indeed a Gallipoli casualty. However, comparing to the official casualty lists, I have found that the war diary is an accurate source of casualties. Therefore, it is likely that James survived life on the peninsula unscathed.

Again, with respect to the regt. numbers, it is interesting to note that the 4-digit QORGY number of one of the early casualties is not given on his MIC. 2275 John Phillips is listed as 15940 Reserve Regiment of Cavalry. Other pieces to note: the war diary confirms that the QORGY was attached to the 1/4th KOSB; I assume they embarked on the SS Ionian; the man mentioned on 22nd Oct is actually 2714 Farquhar McKerchar; the last mention of Gallipoli casualties I can find in The Scotsman was on 7th Feb 1916, referring to Bell and Mackie being wounded.

As I have said previously, I think it likely that James was part of 'C' Squadron and remained on the Eastern Front. This is based on the supposition that the Labour Corps medal roll is more likely to make a renumbering omission rather than omitting a new unit such as the HLI, if he was to have served on the Western Front.

I think that the lines of investigation open to you now include local newspaper reports and the official casualty returns for 1917/18 (British Newspaper Library, Colindale, London). I suppose there is the remote possibility that a Sergeant may get a mention in a war diary; the relevant one of which would appear to be for the XXI Corps Cavalry Regiment (National Archives: WO 95/4497). This includes the 1/1st Glasgow Yeomanry ('C' Squadron) Sept 1917 - Aug 1918. It would be interesting to know if anyone on the forum was able to give any details on action seen by XXI Corps in Palestine and beyond.

I have copied a few small reports on QORGY men from The Scotsman. PM me with an email address if you want me to send them on to you.

Have you had any more thoughts/ideas on what you are going to do next?

Cheers,

Stuart

[michaelmclaren]

Stuart

Many thanks again for your very thorough investigations. It is very helpful to know that the war diary gives a fairly complete record of casualties suffered by the QORGY at Gallipoli.

You have given me quite a lot to be getting on with! Obviously the key would be to find when Sjt. McLaren was injured and it seems that newspaper archives may be the best hope here.

You mention The British Newspaper Library in London for official casualty returns- would this be The Times casualty lists?

Living in Glasgow means trips to London are rare but I would definitely like to visit Kew again to view the war diary for XXI Corps Cavalry Regiment which may also have good records of OR casualties. If any forum members have info on this regiment it would be interesting to hear.

In the short term I would be looking more to local papers so I better start checking with older members of the family, census records etc. to find which area of Glasgow James came from. The Evening Times archive at the Mitchell Library often has good information so this may be worth a look. Over time I would like to do some project with the service numbers as you have given so many ideas and I am sure this would produce lots of other lines of research.

Probably a better understanding of the QORGY would be best place to start so I will try to track down the book you mentioned and also the magazines mentioned by David.

On speaking to my Uncle he pointed out that James also fought in the Boer War, research for another day perhaps!

I had no idea when I started this research that I would find out so much information from the small amount of information I had. It all started when my Dad found an old medal in a box left by his parents which was marked 2443 SJT J. MCLAREN Q.O.R. GLASGOW Y.

Kind regards

Michael McLaren

[PPCLI]

Hello again,

Yes, amazing how far you can get with very little information. At the moment, some of it is only informed guesswork, but at least there are still a few lines of enquiry still available to find something a little more conclusive.

You mention The British Newspaper Library in London for official casualty returns- would this be The Times casualty lists?

Yes and no! Yes, they are the lists that The Times published until about April 1917, after which only those who died in service were published in The Times. The later casualty lists i.e., not published in The Times, are held by the British Newspaper Library.

Living in Glasgow means trips to London are rare but I would definitely like to visit Kew again to view the war diary for XXI Corps Cavalry Regiment which may also have good records of OR casualties. If any forum members have info on this regiment it would be interesting to hear.

My original explanation of the war diary wasn't very clear (which is actually good news!). The XXI Corps Cavalry Regiment diary covers Oct 1917-May 1919. The good bit is that within this group of diaries is that of the 1/1st Glasgow Yeomanry (`C' Squadron), covering Sept 1917-Aug 1918. As a Sgt in a relatively small unit, there is a chance that he may be mentioned, especially if the diary was still being written up in the same detailed manner as at Gallipoli. It may well be worth a trip to Kew....

Over time I would like to do some project with the service numbers as you have given so many ideas and I am sure this would produce lots of other lines of research.

Very pleased to hear this. I think it would be possible to do a good little project on the QORGY, even just solely on 'C' Squadron - especially if the later war diary is as thorough as the Gallipoli one. Getting hold of a copy of the history is definitely a good place to start - see what has already been published. Perhaps the Mitchell Library will have one. Alternatively, a couple of quid for an inter-library loan.

The index to the Evening Times WW1 archive is available as a PDF file online, but doesn't mention James.

I will be very interested to hear how you get on in your various searches for James. Please let us all know.

Cheers,

Stuart

[PPCLI]

Further to the war diary reference - having now checked out the NA catalogue properly, it looks like there is a full run of 'C' Squadron war diaries:

WO 95/4319: 1/1 Glasgow Yeomanry, 'C' Squadron, 1915 June - 1916 Jan (which you have)

WO 95/4497: 1/1 Glasgow Yeomanry 'C' Squadron, 1917 Sept - 1918 Aug (mentioned in previous post)

WO 95/4600: Divisional Troops: 'C' Squadron 1/1 Glasgow Yeomanry, 1916 Feb - 1917 Aug

WO 95/4728: 'C' Squadron Glasgow Yeomanry, 1918 Sept - 1919 May

Maybe you'll need to book a Kew mini-break

Stuart

[michaelmclaren]

Many thanks as always Stuart

I just need to build up enough points to be allowed back to Kew. I now have enough work to keep me busy for a while. I will of course let you know of my progress.

Michael

[Guest]

This thread may be long dead, but yesterday I was going through my late grandfathers papers and came across pictures of him in uniform.  He Was David Shanks Watt  of 4th Troop C sqdn. 1/1 st QORGY. He survived the war.

 

I thought the following pictures might be of interest as it includes C squadron.

 

 

[Sean Quigley]

Thanks to everyone who's contributed here, especially Guest in 2019 the picture of all the lads gathered drinking out of Mugs has my Grandfather Willam Marshall private 3040 in it 5th from right. This will be my family's first time seeing a picture of him in Service and we can't thank you enough. Not only have we a picture now, but also to Michael McClaren I believe a synopsis of what they were experiencing drawn from the War diary. 

[aramsay]

Not much around on the QORGY, so I thought it made sense to add another photo to this thread.

Photo came from an album to the McIntyre family from Aberfeldy, and this one relates to Alexander McIntyre. He is back row, 2nd from left.

For what it's worth, he was s/n 3366 in the QORGY, and enlisted 30-11-15 (...although scored-out #2976 also visible...)

Transferred to the Royal Scots Fusiliers late 1916, joining the 8th Bttn. in Salonika 11-10-16, spending the rest of the War there.

I'd be interested to know why he might have joined the QORGY ? Did B Squadron have any Perthshire connections ?

 

 

 

Edited 23 January by aramsay

[Sean Quigley]

Maybe he just wanted into some form of Yeomanry and the powers that be said "Right, there you go." Also thanks for adding another bit of history to the thread, shame there's so little about them. Wonder how many more units like this have just been forgotten to history? 

Edited 23 January by Sean Quigley
Wanted to add more