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Beware of cut and paste, with no research


armourersergeant
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I have just started to look at a chap called Acland Troyte, who was AA & QMG of 21st division from late 1915 until the end of the war. I did the normal search on the web not expecting to find anything and found a few bits of info. he seems to be an interesting chap, however thats not the reason for the post. yesterday as I do I cut and paste the info to a document and then began to 'strip' down the info in to key words etc. That is to say Born, died, commission, rank promotions, married etc etc.

Very soon it became apparent that people were perhaps cut and pasting without too much research of the facts. I have highlighted, in bold, the apparent perpetuated errors and then a discrepency of facts

See what I mean

Link here

Lt.Col.Sir Gilbert John Acland Troyte

Venn's entry reads: TROYTE (or ACLAND-TROYTE), GILBERT JOHN ACLAND College: TRINITY HALL Entered: Michs. 1895 Born: Died: Adm. at TRINITY HALL, 1895, as Troyte. [3rd] s. of Colonel Charles [Arthur Williams] (above), of Huntsham Court, Devon. [b. Sept. 4, 1876.] School, Eton. Matric. Michs. 1895. Second Lieut., 60th Rifles, 1899; Lieut., 1900; Capt., 1905. Served in the South African War, 1898-1901 (wounded) and in East Africa, 1904. In the Great War, 1914-19 (Major, King's Royal Rifle Corps; Lieut.-Col., A.A. and Q.M.G.; mentioned in despatches five times; D.S.O., 1916; C.B.E.; C.M.G., 1917; French Croix de Guerre. Major, 1915; Brevet Lieut.-Col. 1919). Of Huntsham Court, Tiverton, Devon. J.P. for Devon. M.P. for the Tiverton division of Devon, 1924-45. Knighted, 1945. Joint Master of the Tiverton Foxhounds, 1946-50. President, Central Landowners' Association, 1937-9. Married, Oct. 12, 1909, Gwladys Eleanor, dau. of Ernest Henry Godolphin Quicke, of Newton St Cyres, Devon. (The V.C. and D.S.O.; Army Lists (sub Acland-Troyte); Who's Who; Burke, P. and B.)

next one

link here

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Lieutenant-Colonel Sir Gilbert John Acland-Troyte CMG, DSO, JP (4 September 1876 – 27 April 1964) was a British soldier and politician.

The son of Colonel Charles Arthur William Troyte and Katherine Mary Walrond, he was educated at Eton College, Berkshire and Trinity College, Cambridge. He served in the King's Royal Rifle Corps, receiving the rank of Lieutenant-Colonel in 1900. Acland-Troyte fought in the Second Boer War one year later, where he was dangerously wounded and, in Somaliland from 1903 to 1904. In the First World War, he was mentioned in despatches seven times, and was decorated with the Distinguished Service Order and the Croix de Guerre in 1916. In the following year, he became also a Companion of the Order of St Michael and St George (CMG).

Acland-Troyte was Member of Parliament (MP) for Tiverton from 1924 to 1945. Invested as a knight in 1945, he was Master of Foxhounds of Tiverton between 1946 to 1950. He was Justice of Peace and County Alderman of Devon.

On 12 October 1909, he married Gwladys Eleanor Quicke, daughter of Ernest Henry Godolphin Quicke.

And the next

link here

Lt.-Col. Sir Gilbert John Acland-Troyte1

M, #31419, b. 4 September 1876, d. 27 April 1964

Lt.-Col. Sir Gilbert John Acland-Troyte|b. 4 Sep 1876\nd. 27 Apr 1964|p3142.htm#i31419|Colonel Charles Arthur William Troyte|b. 11 May 1842\nd. 11 Apr 1896|p3125.htm#i31249|Katherine Mary Walrond|b. 8 Apr 1846\nd. 5 Jun 1934|p3127.htm#i31270|Arthur H. D. Troyte|b. 3 May 1811\nd. 19 Jun 1857|p3116.htm#i31159|Frances Williams|b. b 1820\nd. 4 Aug 1856|p3116.htm#i31160|Sir John W. Walrond, 1st Bt.|b. 1 Mar 1818\nd. 23 Apr 1889|p2900.htm#i28998|Hon. Francis C. Hood|b. 1813\nd. 1 Oct 1903|p3128.htm#i31271|

Last Edited=6 Sep 2005

Lt.-Col. Sir Gilbert John Acland-Troyte was born on 4 September 1876.1 He was the son of Colonel Charles Arthur William Troyte and Katherine Mary Walrond.1 He married Gwladys Eleanor Quicke, daughter of Ernest Henry Godolphin Quicke, on 12 October 1909.1 He died on 27 April 1964 at age 87, without issue.1

Lt.-Col. Sir Gilbert John Acland-Troyte was educated at Eton College, Eton, Berkshire, England.1 He was educated at Trinity College, Cambridge University, Cambridge, Cambridgeshire, England.1 He gained the rank of Lieutenant-Colonel in 1900 in the service of the King's Royal Rifle Corps.1 He held the office of Justice of the Peace (J.P.) for Devon.1 He fought in the Boer War in 1901, where he was dangerously wounded.1 He fought in the campaign in Somaliland between 1903 and 1904.1 He fought in the First World War, where he was mentioned in despatches seven times.1 He was decorated with the Companion, Distinguished Service Order (D.S.O.) in 1916.1 He was decorated with the Croix de Guerre.1 He was invested as a Companion, Order of St. Michael and St. George (C.M.G.) in 1917.1 He held the office of Member of Parliament (M.P.) for Tiverton between 1924 and 1945.1 He held the office of County Alderman for Devon.1 He was invested as a Knight in 1945.1 He was Master of Fozhounds, Tiverton between 1946 and 1950.1

Citations

1. [s8] Charles Mosley, editor, Burke's Peerage and Baronetage, 106th edition, 2 volumes (Crans, Switzerland: Burke's Peerage (Genealogical Books) Ltd, 1999), volume 1, page 23. Hereinafter cited as Burke's Peerage and Baronetage, 106th edition.

I know that Wiki is founded on a cut and paste society on occasions, but I wonder why people do not bother to check facts before they 'print'!

Or am I just being a painful anorak?

So I have looked at the medal cards and see four MID! so a bit more research needed here me thinks.

regards

Arm

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Arm

I think itis where the world is now, there want it now and the quickest way possible.

Donot get me wrong i am all for cut and paste, its if you put it into your own research, without any checks at all, it follow's another thread re the source of the material, and there is nothing wrong with having the correct infomation.

Or am I just being a painful anorak?

I Things we are all closet anoraks.

Regards Kevin

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It may interest those who use Wikipaedia for research that there is quite a lot of evidence recently that it is deliberately doctored by political parties and pressure groups. So much so that the people who oversee it have tightened up on editing facilities. I would accord to data gleaned from wikipaedia, the same confidence that I would to uncorroborated anecdote. In contentious issues, perhaps less.

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Don't knock cut and paste, mate.

We're in some form of war on the basis of a cut and paste research document. At least your dossier isn't that dodgy :lol:

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I am inclined to think that the first one I put up that quotes Venn, is correct.

The Peerage one is 2005 and the Wiki one in late 2006, which is copied from peerage, with the MID mistake!

What I can not understand is why someone would do this, having what I would assume some interest in the subject to bother, not much milage out of doing this wrong in the way it has been done. There can not be many people doing a search for this chap other than me surely?

Can I say I am a little hurt/worried at Pals eagerness to jump on the 'painful anorak' jibe :P

regards

Arm

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Ah... his Times obit says he received 7 MID's !!

regards

Arm

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Thank you Michael.

regards

Arm

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Arm,

Who Was Who entry, volume 6 (1961-1970)

Andy

post-1871-1203872165.jpg

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Thanks Andy,

A bit more info about him, in the Home Guard 1940-44.

No mention of how many MID's alas.

regards

Arm

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MoD official site on the DSO:

The Distinguished Service Order (DSO) was instituted originally to reward junior officers in the Army for distinguished service or acts of gallantry against the enemy. While the Order of the Bath had been available for senior officers and the Distinguished Conduct Medal for the other ranks, no award below the level of the Victoria Cross (VC) had existed for junior officers. The DSO was also made available to junior officers of the other services.

Wikipedia:

The DSO was instituted on 6 September 1886 by Queen Victoria in a Royal Warrant published on 9 November. It is typically awarded to officers ranked Major (or its equivalent) or higher, but the honour has sometimes been awarded to especially valorous junior officers.

Spot the difference!

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Arm

According to War Services of Officers of the Army 1919 he did receive seven mentions - 19/1014, 17/2/15, 22/6/15, 1/1/16, 24/2/17, 17/5/17, 20/12/18.

Charles M

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am I just being a painful anorak?

Oh & I tried so hard not to post anything :P After sharing a room with you on 2 tours of Ypres, I reserve the right to remain silent on that one..................Seriously though I think this highlights the potential dangers of info extracted from Wikipedia would agree with Tom as to how to treat it's validity.

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According to War Services of Officers of the Army 1919 he did receive seven mentions - 19/1014, 17/2/15, 22/6/15, 1/1/16, 24/2/17, 17/5/17, 20/12/18.

Many thanks for that Charles, that clears up another point.

Anyone confirm he served with the 2nd KRRC in 1914/15 before going to 21st division? I know he was with the 2nd battn by 1911 after having served with 4th in Somaliland, confirmed that with 1911 Army Lists.

regards

Arm

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Will,

;)

regards

Arm

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From the Diary of partner's grandfather, who was a CSM in 2/KRRC in 1914 (DCM) and later Lt 1/KRRC and MGC, I can confirm that Acland-Troyte was 2/KRRC in 1914.

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I have to declare an interest here re the Acland Troyte in the first post. My grandad as a boy gardener used to do his lawns at Huntsham court on a donkey pulled lawnmower. The donkey had to have padded feet.

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Alan,

I believe the house and ground still exist, yet whilst a relative still exists they do not seem to play a part in its running. I guess it run by a trust etc. When doing some searching came across a website all about the family and the home.

I guess the padded feet was to protect the grass?

regards

Arm

Phil,

Thanks for that, helps to nail another small gap. Don't suppose it says anything of value about him does it?

regards

Arm

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Of course the whole point about Wikis is that if you see something you don't like or find to be inaccurate you can change it yourself!

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I guess the padded feet was to protect the grass?

regards

Arm

Absolutely - you didn't want hoofprints on your immaculate lawn. Incidentally (and getting back on WW1...), the Charles H. Pugh company began building infernal combustion-engined mowers supposedly after the director's donkey died, and used the trademark of an older company they'd absorbed, the Atlas Chain Company. Thus was born Atco, ensuring the survival of a company who no longer had a military market for precision-made small parts post-1918.

Adrian

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For those that may be interested this is the write up so far. Sources are those above, Army List, Times obit and other sources found on the Times archive.

Lieutenant-Colonel Sir Gilbert John Acland-Troyte,

Acland-Troyte was born on the 4th September 1876, the 3rd son of Colonel Charles Arthur William and Katherine Mary (nee Walrond), spending his early years at Huntsham Court, Devon, the family home. Education at Eton was followed in 1895

by entry to Trinity College, Cambridge.

He was commissioned in to the 60th Rifles, Kings Royal Rifle Corps in 1899 as a 2nd Lieutenant and accompanied the battalion to South Africa, seeing action as part of the Mounted Infantry, before he was, as the Times says ‘dangerously wounded abdomen’, badly enough to be shipped home on the Hospital ship Dunera on the 20th December. Docking in Britain on the 20th January 1902. An account of his wound and the events around it was printed in The Times of Friday December 13th 1901 and is worth recounting here. At the time much was made of the Boers striping the dead and wounded of all valuables.

"I was wounded on 25th October in a rearguard action with Colonel Benson’s force, near Kaffirstadt. The Boers came up and stripped me of everything except my drawers, shirt and socks, they gave me an old pair of trousers and later a coat. They left me some time to see if our ambulance would come, as it did not they took me into a farmhouse, used as a temporary hospital, and there treated me as well as they could. Commandant Grobelaar’s family were there. There was also a sergeant and two privates in the same room. They also had been stripped, but were well treated in the house. They took a silver watch and gold ring. I was removed in the ambulance two days after."

It may be that by the time the ship docked he had recovered for many of the men on board had done so and only a small proportion were sent to the hospital on docking. He was certainly recovered by 1903 when he was sent to East Africa and the campaign in Somaliland. He returned aboard the hired freight ship Malta from Berbera arriving home in early July 1904.

Promotion on the 28th January 1905 was followed by marriage on the October 12th 1909 to Gwladys Eleanor, daughter of Ernest Henry Godolphin Quicke, of Newton St Cyres, Devon. By now he was in the 2nd battalion, having seen active service with the 4th battalion in Somaliland.

The Great War saw him a Major in the KRRC and on the 28th November 1915 he took over the position of Assistant Adjutant and Quartermaster General (AA&QMG) of 21st division on the western front. He must have been a capable officer being that he remained in this position giving David Campbell, commander of the 21st from mid 1916, continuity in this vital staff role.

He was mentioned in despatches seven times during the war (1), received the Distinguished Service order (DSO) in 1916 and was made a Companion, Order of St. Michael and St. George (CMG) in 1917. During the war he was also rewarded with the French Croix de Guerre. He was made a Brevet Lieut.-Colonel in 1919.

Upon the death of his brother Hugh on the 17th April 1918(2) in action in France, who left no issue, he inherited the family home at Huntsham Court, Tiverton, Devon, being a member of parliament for this region from 1924-45. He was also a Justice of the peace (J.P.) and held the office of the County of the Alderman for Devon.

Acland-Troyte was President, Central Landowners' Association, 1937-9, Knighted in 1945 and was joint Master of the Tiverton Foxhounds, from 1946-50. He was also a member of the Home Guard from 1940-44.

He died on 27 April 1964 at age 87. Lady Acland Troyte died on her birthday, 21 October 1968, aged 85. They left no children and the home passed to another brother.

1..MiD's were dated.19/1/14, 17/2/15, 22/6/15, 1/1/16, 24/2/17, 17/5/17, 20/12/18.

2...Lieutenant Colonel Hugh Leonard Acland Troyte, 4th Bn., Devonshire Regiment, attd. XI Corps, H.Q. was killed on the 17th April 1918 and is buried at Berguette Churchyard

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