PhilB Posted 23 February , 2008 Share Posted 23 February , 2008 Well no. It serves as a status symbol if they simply see a stick! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 23 February , 2008 Share Posted 23 February , 2008 So no point in it being a sword stick? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loganshort Posted 23 February , 2008 Share Posted 23 February , 2008 now now no slapping each other with a fish.. a sword fish? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 23 February , 2008 Share Posted 23 February , 2008 or the external stick could be prominently marked such as: WILKINSON SWORD stick y'know. and while it was being read, they get the ,business bit. up them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 23 February , 2008 Share Posted 23 February , 2008 So no point in it being a sword stick? I think there`s a pun in there somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 23 February , 2008 Share Posted 23 February , 2008 At this point in Monty Python John Cleese appears in a general's uniform shouting "Silly , too silly I'm closing the sketch down" Where are you John when we need you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 23 February , 2008 Share Posted 23 February , 2008 Where were you lot when Phil and I were keeping this thread alive on our own? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelfe Posted 24 February , 2008 Share Posted 24 February , 2008 'Sword stick' doesn't have to be 'walking stick' pattern. A 'swagger stick', pattern would be compact and carried stuck in a riding boot. If you think unsheafing a sword stick would take time have you ever tried reloading a revolver in a hurry? I guess the alternative would be to carry a bayonet for hand use. Incidentally where did officers carry revolver ammo in WW1? '38 patt webbing provided a small pouch that was the size of a revolver ammo carton, so not only open the pouch but also get the carton out, open it, remove bullets, etc. Not exactly the position to be in at revolver range in a trench. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 24 February , 2008 Share Posted 24 February , 2008 Where were you lot when Phil and I were keeping this thread alive on our own? Yes, hard work that. I had thought of a couple of ideas. A switch baton/knife (Blade appears in a trice) and a sword bagpipe. I`m still working on that, but clearly the bagpipes have to have some real purpose since it`s obviously not music making. I think I`ve lost Mr Rutherford`s support now! Actually, here`s my view on the swordstick. I don`t think an officer would have carried one because it wasn`t seen as "officer like" to carry a concealed blade. It`s a fine distinction, I know, between a sword in a scabbard and a blade inside a stick but I think it`s a real one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 24 February , 2008 Share Posted 24 February , 2008 I know that there were sword stick type thingies which had a dagger rather than a sword blade. I think that Phil has a point about it being not quite the done thing. Being taken prisoner while carrying one may have adversely affected the chances of survival. As far as reloading time goes, I have 6 shots before I have to worry about reloading. I don't think there is a great difference in loading time between a rifle and a revolver, all ammunition is carried in secure pouches of some kind or another.The bagpipes at less than 2 metres would probably induce a heart attack or paralyse with shock. No need for a sharp bit, pipers can carry a dirk with a 15" blade and a sgian dubh in their sock. I do not think that officers could turn up with just any old weapon which took their fancy. Until they got too senior to be going over the top or repelling an assault, their weapons would be prescribed for them. It has been fun but I have to say that I suspect that any swordsticks were unofficial, confined to 18 year old subalterns and would have drawn official disapproval. Edit. Browsing for something else this afternoon, reminded me of a documented occasion of a sword agains a pistol. A one legged Irishman and an accomplice, armed with pistols, killed FM Sir Henry Wilson, despite Wilson trying to defend himself with his sword. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 24 February , 2008 Share Posted 24 February , 2008 .......... sorry your honour, I fetched 'im one on the earole wiv me wooden leg an' 'e collapsed, like!' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 24 February , 2008 Share Posted 24 February , 2008 I do not think that officers could turn up with just any old weapon which took their fancy. Until they got too senior to be going over the top or repelling an assault, their weapons would be prescribed for them. It has been fun but I have to say that I suspect that any swordsticks were unofficial, confined to 18 year old subalterns and would have drawn official disapproval. Not necessarily there appears to have been a fair bit of latitude about what one took on a trench raid for example. As I've said there are references to some officers carrying shot guns when going over the top. However I would agree that a sword stick would give no advantage - Hans there's a British officer just leapt into our trench should I shoot him? No, Heinrich, he's only got a stick Fine Hans I'll jus --- aarrrgh - seems unlikely. Browsing for something else this afternoon, reminded me of a documented occasion of a sword agains a pistol. A one legged Irishman and an accomplice, armed with pistols, killed FM Sir Henry Wilson, despite Wilson trying to defend himself with his sword. The best illustration of the advantage of a revolver over other martial arts is in Raiders of the Lost Ark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 24 February , 2008 Share Posted 24 February , 2008 I agree that yours is by far the more entertaining but mine is better documented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellow Posted 24 February , 2008 Author Share Posted 24 February , 2008 Interesting points regarding the revolver VS the sword stick. But if swordsticks were so useless why were they so popular with the gentry in Victorian England when pockets pistols were also available? I think that answer is closer to the truth as to why swordsticks may of been carried during the war. So we have ruled these out as being used in the trenches but what about in inhospitable cities such as Hong Kong, Cairo or even German cities during the occuptation in 1919? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 24 February , 2008 Share Posted 24 February , 2008 Swordsticks were made and sold, of that there is no doubt. Their use in inhospitable cities may well be off topic except in the occupied zones. Do you have any evidence that points to such use? There is a big step from a possible occurrence to an actual one and a bigger one still to an established pattern of behaviour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellow Posted 24 February , 2008 Author Share Posted 24 February , 2008 No I dont have any evidence. Thats why I started the thread and am asking the Pals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanA Posted 24 February , 2008 Share Posted 24 February , 2008 the truth as to why swordsticks may of been carried during the war. So we have ruled these out as being used in the trenches but what about in inhospitable cities such as Hong Kong, Cairo or even German cities during the occuptation in 1919? Swordsticks may have been carried during the war? There hasn't been a shred of evidence!! I missed the Hong Kong front. Was this one of Lloyd George's wilder imaginings? Now, gather round, if you could all just imagine me as John Cleese in a brigadier's uniform....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Broomfield Posted 24 February , 2008 Share Posted 24 February , 2008 Swordsticks must have ause, or no-one would have made them, and I daresay that in places such as Hong Kong, or even in Regency England may have been useful. It might indicate that you weren't looking for trouble ( a sword might be provocative, and pistols were remarkably inefficient in earlier times), so a sword stick might have been a sensible insurance against foot pads. As for whether offciers carried them in the Great War, I suspect it unlikely. Surely they would have had a little man to....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 24 February , 2008 Share Posted 24 February , 2008 Swordsticks must have ause, or no-one would have made them, and I daresay that in places such as Hong Kong, or even in Regency England may have been useful. It might indicate that you weren't looking for trouble Carrying a sword on the street was illegal if you weren't in the military, police (yes they once carried swords and cutlasses) or similar , carrying a swordstick was double illegal but who was to know? Unless you were Sir Percy Blakney (they seek him here, they seek him there.......) probably not much more use than a stout lead loaded stick itself (no self respecting foot pad or garroter would give you long enough to un sheave). One the percussion system (invented 1811) became widely available in the late 1820s /early 1830s pistols became pretty reliable even if only single or double barreled. The late 18th and nineteenth centuries saw a plethora of different and sometimes quite impractical weapons for self defence, many of them either concealed or disguised as something else including the illogical development of the sword stick - the gun stick. Murders were actually committed with the latter. Other oddities included the sword umbrella (and of course the gun umbrella and in the 20th century the Bulgarian poison pellet umbrella), pistols contained in books, combined knuckledusters and knives, combined knuckledusters and pistols, cutlass pistols, palm 'squeeze ' pistols, and the 'Swiss army knife ' of them all the combined knucleduster/revolver/dagger to mention but a few. In general all gimmicks (even though often sold in some numbers - 007's Q had his predecessors) - I think that the sword stick falls into this category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete1052 Posted 25 February , 2008 Share Posted 25 February , 2008 If I recall correctly the so-called "small-sword" was a gentleman's accessory in London during the 18th century. The photographs of the ones I've seen remind me of the largely ceremonial swords that some armies later adopted, such as the Model 1840 NCO's Sword in the U.S. Army. People who don't want to be burdened with weight want something light, a light sword or a light pistol. The tiny pistols made by the Germans, Belgians, Austrians, and Americans are not only small to make them easily concealed, it's to make them a minor burden that are easily carried. My .32 Walther PPK from Ulm in 1965 stays in the safe, the gun laws in the vicinity change too much from state to state for me to carry it, but the gun is always there if I need it. What I said may sound a bit paranoid but I helped to put a crack dealer, an African-American gentleman--30 prior arrests--in jail a few years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanA Posted 25 February , 2008 Share Posted 25 February , 2008 Anyone know of a good WW1 forum? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max7474 Posted 25 February , 2008 Share Posted 25 February , 2008 If I mention the Waffen SS will the moderator please close the thread as 'off topic' and put us out of our misery. Alan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellow Posted 25 February , 2008 Author Share Posted 25 February , 2008 You dont have to look far and wide if you want to see a WW1 sword stick. Please note this is not a plug, I am merely proving the existence of WW1 British Army sword sticks to the pals. This is the second example I have seen witha regimental top, the first being an NCO's stick to the Royal Flying Corps. Please go here: http://www.regimentals.co.uk/ and go to the online shop and do a search for sword stick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilB Posted 25 February , 2008 Share Posted 25 February , 2008 Here`s the description:- MOTOR MACHINE GUN CORPS SWAGGER/SWORD STICK. A rare swagger stick, which has a concealed blade. The overall length of the stick is 36 inches, with the brass finial top reading 'Machine Gun Corps' over crown, over crossed Vickers machine guns, below number '61' over the scroll reading 'Motor Machine Gun Section'. I take it this is an OR`s stick? Any reason to think it`s other than genuine? By which I mean contemporary as it certainly wouldn`t be official issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Armstrong Custer Posted 25 February , 2008 Share Posted 25 February , 2008 Unless there's a very good provenance with it (not mentioned in the description) I'd be very wary of pieces such as this. It may, on the one hand, be a privately commissioned post-war piece made at the behest of a former member of the Motor Machine Gun Section rather than anything which would have been carried on duty whilst serving with this unit. Then again, without a provenance, it is quite possibly a perfectly legitimate contemporary civilian piece which has been 'sexed up' by someone in recent years by the addition of spurious engraving to the brass finial. What it does not prove, in my personal opinion, is the use of such pieces - either in particular or in general - in the trenches. I impute no wrong doing on the part of the current vendor - but as always, in the absence of provenance, caveat emptor! ciao, GAC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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