Sheffield City Battalion

[Chris_Baker]

I am looking at the details of a Private numbered 2130 who on going overseas went into the 12th (Service) Battalion, the York & Lancaster (Sheffield City Battalion). He did not go out before 1916 so was not with the original contingent. is it safe to assume his number was from a battalion, rather than regimental, sequence? Any ideas when he would have gone out? Just in case anyone has details he was Pte 2130 J. F. Rothwell.

[AGWR]

Chris,

I am not sure that it would be safe to assume that his number was from the battalion sequence. The 12th Y&L used '12' as a prefix.

See MIC for Pte Sidney Chapman (12/2157), who later served with the 1st Y&L.

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...mp;mediaarray=*

That said, it is possible that John Rothwell's prefix has dropped off somewhere along the line, as I cannot find an MIC for 12/2130. However, his name is not listed in the 'Biographical List' in the back of Ralph Gibson and Paul Oldfield's book Sheffield City Battalion which would appear to suggest that he was not with the battalion on 1 July 1916, given that the authors seem to have access to a list of soldiers, who were 'on the Battalion strength' that day.

Regards,

AGWR

[jay dubaya]

Hi Chris,

Like AGWR has mentioned, there's a possibility that John's '12' prefix has been lost at some point. The last '12' prefix to the battalion that I have found would be 12/2158. Most men with numbers over 12/1150 were destined never to serve with the battalion.

The Sheffield Daily Telegraph ran an article on 31st Januay 1916 in response to many letters of complaint. Men who had originally enlisted into the 12th Battalion and who were sent to the 15th (Reserve) Battalion were not being sent to the battalion to which they had enlisted. The recruiters promised, that if possible men would be sent to battalions of their choice.

Perhaps this is where John's '12 prefix went AWOL. Also I have found some men who served with the 12th Battalion having a '3' prefix followed by 4 digits, these men having been supplied by the 3rd (Reserve) Battalion

Do you know if John was a Sheffield lad?

Sorry I can't be of more help at the moment,

cheers, Jon

[Grovetown]

One wonders if the 12/ prefix was much observed - day to day - within the battalion itself?

I have three New Testaments presented to battalion members, by the YMCA, at Redmires in January 1915. All are identical and have 12th Y&L etc in gold blocking on the cover. They are nicely named, numbered etc on the inside front cover - one to someone in 2 Pltn, A Coy; one to 9 Pltn, C Coy and one to 14 Pltn, D Coy.

All three numbers are below 850; and none, as written in the testaments, features the 12/ prefix. Of the three, only one shows it on his MIC.

That said, I haven't got Gibson/ Oldfield for cross-referencing...

Best wishes,

GT.

[Brigantian]

Chris

I am attempting to build an enlistment database for the Sheffield City Battalion. So far I have details of 2,943 men who served at some point with the unit. Numbers with a 12 prefix were initially allocated sequentially from 1 to at least 2168. Within this range I have 587 missing individuals, of which 12/2130 is one.

The 13th and 14th Battalions also used their Battalion numbers as a prefix, but did not allocate numbers much above 13/1522 or 14/1627 respectively. Just to complicate matters, 3rd, 4th and 5th Battalion numbers also run through the same range, although few of these appear to have served with the 12th Battalion.

I have not yet looked in any depth at the broader York and Lancaster numbering system, but around late 1915 to early 1916 men entering other York and Lancaster Battalions seem to have been issued five digit numbers beginning with 2 or 3.

I strongly suspect your man’s number is from the 12th Battalion rather than any other York & Lancaster sequence.

I do have enlistment dates for a number of men having numbers close to Pte. Rothwell, which might give some indication as to when he joined:

12/2123 enlisted 10-12-15

12/2128 enlisted 4-3-16

12/2145 enlisted 10-12-15

12/2154 enlisted 8-12-15

I cannot yet help with a likely date when he might have gone overseas.

Regards

Mark

[Chris_Baker]

Interesting stuff, Mark. Thanks. If I do find out more about my man 2130 I'll let you know.

[kevinrowlinson]

Mark,

Seeing those dates I had a quick look and they are attestation dates I think you will find.

12/2154 Ellis, E.B. attested 8-12-1915, mobilised 12-4-1916 into 15th (Reserve) Bn. York & Lancs. Sent to 1st Battalion MEF.

12/2155 Bream, H. attested 1-12-1915, mobilised 12-4-1916 into 15th (Reserve) Bn. York & Lancs. Sent to 1st Battalion MEF. KIA

I suggest that your number run may will work out sequentially if you use the mobilisation dates. Just a thought.

Regards Kevin

[Cliff. Hobson]

Forgive me for intruding in this thread but would I be correct in assuming that the following men from my Village enlisted in the Y.& L. in August 1914.?

John Richard Carding-Wells No. 12/65 ? (returned from Switzwerland to enlist) KIA 1st July 1916

John William Streets No. 12/525 KIA 1st July 1916

John Thomas Presley Ellis No. 12/2033 KIA 20th July 1916

Regards Cliff

[Grovetown]

the 'Biographical List' in the back of Ralph Gibson and Paul Oldfield's book Sheffield City Battalion

Having just bought the 2006 HB edition from Amazon this week; am I wrong to feel a little swizzed that this list is not included; but is available from Pen & Sword for an additional £10?

Also: on P. 61 of the HB, there is a group photo of the Bn serjeants at Redmires. Does anyone know of the source, or a copy they could perhaps email me - it features two men of whom I have personal items? Thanks.

Best wishes,

GT.

[jay dubaya]

Swizzed is one word for it GT. Can't help with the sorce of the photos, have you tried the Y&L museum in Rotherham? I have an interest in CSM 12/2 William Marsden, it appears he may have married a Great Aunt of mine.

cheers, Jon

[Footsore Private]

Regarding the Sheffield City Battalion enlistment numbers is it known if numbering commenced immediately and proceeded logically?

From SHEFFIELD CITY BATTALION by Gibson/Oldfield page 29 I paraphrase:

First afternoon (2 September) 250 enrolled. (Where they numbers 12/1 to 12/250?)

3 September another 370 came forward. (Numbers 12/251 to 12/621?)

4 September the number reached 790. (Or 169 enlistments ending with soldier 12/790?)

The reason I ask is that if the numbering system was consecutive and systematic we could deduce some relationship or familiarity between men with consecutive enlistment numbers.

Any advise greatly appreciated.

Regards.

[jay dubaya]

Indeed we can footsore. Pte. 12/69 Alphaeus Casey noted in his diary that he enlisted on 10th September 1914 with 90 others from the varsity, so this somewhat clouds the enlistment and allocation of numbers procedure. The 10th September 1914 marks the official date for the formation of the battalion so perhaps the numbers were allocated on this date and not the date the men initially enlisted.

cheers, Jon

[Footsore Private]

Indeed we can footsore. Pte. 12/69 Alphaeus Casey noted in his diary that he enlisted on 10th September 1914 with 90 others from the varsity, so this somewhat clouds the enlistment and allocation of numbers procedure. The 10th September 1914 marks the official date for the formation of the battalion so perhaps the numbers were allocated on this date and not the date the men initially enlisted.

cheers, Jon

Thanks Jon. Amazing response in a few short hours!

Your example seemingly confirms that service numbers were assigned on 10 September during the official formation of the Sheffield City Battalion and not at the men's individual mustering.

I wonder if this pattern holds true across other battalions of similarly formed units? If they did have a true numerical sequence on enlistment than it could be a useful tool in the study of the individuals.

Regards.

[John490]

Hello Mark,

I've just found my great grandfather's records which have been added to 'ancestry' lately. He is 29224 Pte Percy Watson. He attested in Dec 1915 at Rotherham, moved to the 3rd Bn for nearly a year, then the 12th Bn when he went to France in Dec 1916 followed by the 13th Bn, presumably on the disbandment of the 12th Bn. He was certainly with the 13th in 1918-1919. He has the 5 digit number beginning with '2' for a man joining 1915/16. Is he on your list?

Chris

I am attempting to build an enlistment database for the Sheffield City Battalion. So far I have details of 2,943 men who served at some point with the unit. Numbers with a 12 prefix were initially allocated sequentially from 1 to at least 2168. Within this range I have 587 missing individuals, of which 12/2130 is one.

I have not yet looked in any depth at the broader York and Lancaster numbering system, but around late 1915 to early 1916 men entering other York and Lancaster Battalions seem to have been issued five digit numbers beginning with 2 or 3.