16/8/1917 reports?

[Guest Desmond6]

In doing research on Ballymena men who died in GW I have found that a very high number of fatalities occurred on 16/8/17 in the area of Ypres. These, taken in conjunction with deaths recorded a few days before and even more after, represent a casualty rate for men from the town which almost matches that of the more famous July 1 event.

I am hopeful of having a good deal of research put together in a reader friendly format for a special supplement in my local newspaper around the end of October. Any contributions or info from forum members who have more knowledge of the Ypres situation would be very welcome. Most men in my area served with 12RIR but there were many others scattered in various Btns. of the 36th Div.

Having grown up in NI, the 1st day on Somme has always been well known - but I personally was never aware of such a high rate of casualties amongst local men in such a short period in 1917. To coin a cliche it seems that the ground fought over on 16/8/17 is truly a 'forgotten battlefield' here in NI. Any war diaries, accounts etc greatly appreciated.

Thanks, Des

[Tom Morgan]

Des,

It may be little known in NI but it isn't by any means a forgotten battlefield in the wider sense. We're talking about the opening day of the Battle of Langemark and for the 36th Division there were some echoes of the Somme. The Division attacked with two brigades just to the SW of the village of St. Julien (at zero hour - 4.45 am I think.)

109 Brigade on the left came up against heavy machine gun fire but managed to take some of their objectives and hold on for the rest of the day, resulting in the line being pushed forward to encompass the Forth Hill and Corn Hill positions.

108 Brigade on the right (including the 12th RIR) came under very heavy fire from strong German machine-gun positions at the Somme Farm and Gallipoli positions. By 10.00 am the survivors had returned to their starting point.

109 Bde:

14th Royal Irish Rifles led and 11th Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers led the attack, with 9th Inniskilling Fusiliers in support and 10th Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers in reserve.

108 Bde:

9th Royal Irish Fusiliers and 13th Royal Irish Rifles led the attack, with 12th Royal Irish Rifles in support and 11th Royal Irish Rifles in reserve.

Tom

[Malcolm]

16th August 1917 was the start of the battle of Langemarck and involved the 16th Irish and 36th Ulster Divisions among the Divisions involved. See the main site.

Aye

Malcolm

[Guest Desmond6]

Thanks folks ... it really has been an eye opener for me ... I KNOW for a fact that very few people in this town (outside those with an interest in military history) would have heard of the association with the battle.

It certainly seems to have been a 'black day' for Ballymena.

In the overall context of the supplement, I would hope to point out the overall social impact which the war had on the town.

For eg. the town and borough population is now around 60,000 people. In 1928 it was listed as 13,000 for the town and I'm still trying to track accurate 'rural district' population figures. However, I believe it will come in at around 10 - 13,000. This gives a borough population of around 24,000 (lower limit) to 30,000 (upper limit). Obviously many of these would be (A) women ( children © not of the age for military service which narrows down the age group in which casualties occurred considerably.

Total war dead seems to be given as 277 (127 town/150rural). When one considers that most of these dead would have been in the 18-35 age group (with some notable exceptions) the war obviously wiped out an awful lot of proud young men who had a sense of civic (and national) pride.

It's sad to see the line 'only son of' in their CWGC reports. I would love to be able to find the ovrall numbers who served but that will be a tough task. In the meantime, it's off to the reference library again to go through the old weeklies. Thanks again

[Andy Shaw]

Des,

I have the battalion diaries for the 7/8th and 9th Battalions Royal Irish Fusiliers for that period, some names are mentioned. Do you have a list of the men you are researching or is it lifted from 'soldiers died'. If so I can cross reference them with the diaries. I presume you are looking at men that lived in Ballymena as well as those that were born there.

Andy

[Chris_Baker]

A salutary lesson about the overwhelming concentration on 1 July 1916 that seems to have been prevalent for the past 50 years or more, in the vast majority of media coverage, reporting, writing, etc. The Great War was rather more than half a day long, and men and communities were affected every single day.

[Guest Desmond6]

Andy - I have 12 KIA for Royal Irish Fusiliers in my initial 'names' research. I have not CWWGC'd them yet because I am working my way through a massive list of Royal Irish Riflemen. Can I come back to you on that one when I know their dates of death/burials etc.? Thanks for the offer.

On a separate note - I don't have SDGW but it must be a great tool.

It might help me verify the following KIA. In a contemporary (1920) document I have a roll of honour which lists under the Royal Irish Rifles section: 'Robinson, Cpl. W. J. of Rokeel Townland, Ballymena' - I have searched CWWG and have come up wiith a 'L/cpl/ William John Robinson, 1st Btn Royal Irish Rifles Died 16/8/17 Service No. 40839 Dist. Conduct Medal. Comm. on Tyne Cot Memorial.

Is this my man? Can I narrow him down further or is it a reference library job .. AGAIN!! Aaargh!

Chris on your point - Absolutely true. I'm hoping that the growing interest in family trees will mean that some of our readers will be attracted to my planned WW1 supplement and therefore it will be an educational tool for them.

I know that research was performed some years ago to detail KIA's from the village of Broughshane outside Ballymena and have spoken to the man who undertook that task. he's promised to chip in with his stuff and give me a few extra pointers. By the way, he had a 'great word' (as we say) for a Mr. Penfold who apparently gave him a great deal of help in the days when he had to contact the CWGC by telephone! If this man is still at his post ... well done from all in Ballymena.

[Andy Shaw]

It might help me verify the following KIA. In a contemporary (1920) document I have a roll of honour which lists under the Royal Irish Rifles section: 'Robinson, Cpl. W. J. of Rokeel Townland, Ballymena' - I have searched CWWG and have come up wiith a 'L/cpl/ William John Robinson, 1st Btn Royal Irish Rifles Died 16/8/17 Service No. 40839 Dist. Conduct Medal. Comm. on Tyne Cot Memorial.

Hi Des,

There are four W Robinson's, Royal Irish Rifles listed in SDGW, only one of these is a William John Robinson, Details are the same as CWGC, SDGW shows he was born in Broughshane and enlisted Ballymena. His DCM was gazetted on 26th January 1918.

40839 L./Cpl. W. J. Robinson, R. Ir. Rif.(Rathkeel, Broughshane).

''For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to duty. When all has company runners had become casualties, he acted as a runner all day, taking messages under severe conditions to advanced posts in shell-holes. His successful efforts in performing this extremely dangerous and most important work contributed very greatly to the repulse of two subsequent counter-attacks''

I did a quick search on men who were born in Ballymena and came up with a total of 205, there are another 15 who are shown as residing in Ballymena but either were born elsewhere or their place of birth is not shown.

Send me your contact details by email and I will send you the lists.

Andy

[Guest Desmond6]

Andy - once again forum comes up trumps!

The list I am working off is based on the Borough war memorial plus a little book written by a local newspaper editor called 'Ruined France and Flanders' which is his account of a tour of the battlefields in the immediate aftermath of the war. At the back it has a roll of honour which seems to be largely correct but with a few 'typos' such as the 'Rokeel Townland' in Robinson's case. Rathkeel is the correct spelling.

The list has many men who were serving with Imperial Forces and a surprisingly high number in Scottish regts. - Jock Bruce seems to be chasing that theme down.

As I said before, I've just about data based the Royal Irish Rifles and then I'll move on to the rest of the names. At this stage, it's a matter of keying in, cross reffing (and effing and blinding) and matching dates to actions/minor incidents.

As I am sure you are aware from your own research, it's easy to get a tiny bit of obsessive about such a project and I hope you and other forum members forgive me if the vast majority of my posts are going down this narrow line in the context of the entire war.

My connection at home is off-line at the moment (should be OK in a few days I've just used up my 'playtime'). Therefore, if I'm a bit late in responding, you'll know the score.

[rob elliott]

To get some idea of the numbers who seved and were not killed there are some good sources available for Northern Ireland. The Presbyterian Church listed all those who served from their individual Churches and from this you can usually get a home address,unit and sometimes details of wounds,awards etc. Although the record varies from Church to Church. The lists are compiled in two volumes and are also great for geneaology. The Masonic Order compiled a book on all its Irish Members who served. The larger schools did memorial registers too.

There is an old book called Ballyclare Heroes,lots of photos with short service histories of local men. Have you seen Robert Thompson's books on the war memorials of North Antrim, lots of 12th RIR.

I have a photocopy of a presentation copy of Falls History of the 36th Ulster Division given to the son of F.B. Thornley with a newspaper cutting of his wife and son standing next to the painting.

You need a copy of this history to understand what the Division went through after the 1st July 16.

[Guest Desmond6]

Rob - cheers and I hope you received an e-mail from me about two weeks ago?

Thompson's books are very good - the one about Bushmills is of interest to me because of the McGowan bros. (died on same day 1/7/16).he deserves a medal for his hard work.

I have access to the volumes you mention through local ref. library.

As I trawl through old copies of our newspaper, I am finding more and more 'human interest' yarns - I am also organising a photo blitz on the old copies which are held in the ref. library before they disintegrate. They're all on microfilm but I am determined to take new images of the pictures which appeared of KIAs etc. Even a 'picture of a picture' will be better than a misty photocopy. Have arranged with librarian for one hour per week to go through the 'hard copy' files for this purpose. It would be a shame if they were lost forever.

I have also had a meeting with the curator of the little Ballymena 'Museum' and they are quite enthusiastic about the project.