Modern Day Pilot looking for Grandfather RFC Pilot

[ade146]

I know its a bit naughty joining a forum and asking for advice, but I'm a bit stuck with my research and it would be great if someone could give me a few pointers.

As a modern airline pilot, I'm trying to find out some information about my Grandfather, Edwin Charles Williams, believed to be an RFC pilot.

He doesn't appear in any RFC MIC's. There are four possible Army MIC's, two main possibles, one of which is listed as RAMC, and the other listed as BRCS.

After the war he was a Sgt in St John's Ambulance, which would fit with the British Red Cross MIC.

None of the medal cards show him being in the RFC.

The BRSC MIC has a strange service number which looks like BRX/27/21. I assume that if he was transferred to the RFC, he would have been given an Army service number.

The RAMC service number is 564057.

Is it possible he could have been in the RFC, but that may not be reflected in the MIC?

Best regards

Capt Adrian Charles Williams

[centurion]

I know its a bit naughty joining a forum and asking for advice,

Thats how an awful lot started - don't worry about it. I'm sure a whole host will be along soon with advice.

Those two MICs seem odd units to transfer to the RFC as a pilot but I know some RAMCs did become medical orderlies in the RFC and possibly once there the conversion took place.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Welcome to the forum

1) Edwin Charles Williams, believed to be an RFC pilot.

2) He doesn't appear in any RFC MIC's. There are four possible Army MIC's

3) After the war he was a Sgt in St John's Ambulance, which would fit with the British Red Cross MIC.

4) None of the medal cards show him being in the RFC.

5) I assume that if he was transferred to the RFC, he would have been given an Army service number.

6) Is it possible he could have been in the RFC, but that may not be reflected in the MIC?

1) Was he an officer? If so your best start is tracing him through the army list.

2) These are all army MICs, as the RFC was part of the army, but RFC personnel only appear if they earned army awards. On 1 April 1918 the RFC became part of the RAF and the RAF issued medals seperately; their MICs have not been released to the public..

3) I have the impression that the Red Cross an St John did cross over much.

4) They only show a small fraction of the RFC.

5) he would have been given an RFC number, all army units had seperate numbering.

6) Yes, in the main only men who were in a qualifying war zone by 31 Dec 1915 (and thus got a Star) or got gallantry awards are on the cards, plus some who transferred. The vast majority (maybe as high as 90%) aren't on those cards.

Here's the bad news: RAF service records (almost all of which survive) are stored in RAF service number order. There is a partial index in ADM 78, offline. The MOD records dept for the RAF might also have an index survivng that has not been transferred.

[ade146]

Thanks very much for your replies, guys.

I think I'll take a couple of days to digest this information.

I don't think it's going to be an easy task to find him, as I haven't much to go on.

Appreciate your help though.

[ade146]

Having had a further think on this I know he was in St Johns Ambulance in 1914. St Johns and The British Red Cross Joined forces at the start of the War to form The Joint War Committee to send Voluntary Aid Detachments to France. I think I need to write to them to check if they have any details of him.

I also have a book presented to him in 1918 which was presented to The Ambulance Service of The Great War. Again this would seem to fit more with the BRX/St Johns rather than the RAMC chap.

As for his flying career hardly anything is known. I remember as a child various parts of flying uniform being around the house. Boots coats goggles and maps of France. Sadly the only item that now exist is a pair of goggle glasses in amber. Im guessing they could insert these as shades into the regular goggles. They are flat and oval unlike the WW11 pilots which are beveled.

I have no idea if he was an officer or indeed if he was still in the RFC after April 1918. I would have thought that due to the amount of flying equipment around the house and the fact he was seen in photos in both single and twin seat aircraft, that he must have been aircrew at least. How this came about for him might remain a mystery. He did mention at the end of the war he was thinking of working as a test pilot for Fairey somewhere near The Humber but this didnt happen.

Without a service number then its a bit of a dead end?

Regards

Adrian

[PFF]

try posting query on "The Aerodrome Forum" {registered site}

http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/index.php

[Hywyn]

Adrian

There are people on the Forum who know the RAMC and VAD etc inside out who may not have been attracted to your post.

It may be an idea to post another thread(possibly in the Soldiers section) suitably Titled and outlining your query from that angle with a bit more about your grandad (age, where from etc). It may be that he will be in one of their databases.

Hywyn

[per ardua per mare per terram]

What you have going for you is his combination of names and that will help you to narrow things down, but please do not limit your search to the online MICs.

I was thinking about the St John connection and thought that he might have gone to war with the Royal Naval Auxiliary Reserve (see other threads on the forum such as

Name Williams, Edwin Charles

Official Number: M4554

Place of Birth: Farnborough, Kent

Date of Birth: 16 April 1893

 

Maybe he was in the RNAS.

[ade146]

Thanks guys for your excellent replies.

Posting another topic is a great idea, Im taking another load of happy holiday makers somewhere sunny this afternoon but will have a think about it on the way!

per ardua, thanks for digging that up but he was born in Abersychan , Wales. Thats the problem of being a Williams, lots of us. Doesn't stop the taxman from finding me though.

Adrian

[houseworkfairy]

My husband's grandfather was a pilot in the RFC 2nd lieutenant Derek Goudie Brown but the only reason I found his medal card was because he was originally in the Royal Engineers but was gassed and then joined the RFC. On his medal card there is no mention of his RFC service and it is only because we have the photos and his pilot's cert that we can confirm this.

I have tried looking for him in the London Gazette online archive but because of his name (ie not sure whether he was Brown or Goudie Brown or Goudie) I haven't found him yet.

You may find it may be worth a try searching for him in the London Gazette but it can be rather annoying in its variability of results although it is much better than six months ago for instance.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Welcome to the forum houseworkfairy

As you know that he was an officer you can check for his RAF service records in AIR 76, these are in alphbetical order on microfilm, offline at Kew.

[ade146]

Housefairy, thanks for the London Gazette idea but I have tried it. I found it pretty hard going and with a Williams there was a lot to look at. I found one of my GFs books the other day. It was issued to the Royal Army Medical Corps in 1908, that ties in with the fact he was St Johns 1914. There are 2 Edwin C Williams on the MICs but this book doesnt rule either of them out. I cant be certain that the Brit Red x werent using Army medical books. I have also laid my hands on my GFs goggles, but I can't find any pictures that look like them. I would say that looking at pictures of MK2 goggles these are definately earlier. 1915 ish. Im guessing if they are his own he must have been flying early on in the war.

I would expect they lost as many pilots through accidents as they did through enemy action in those days

[linden]

Do you have your grandfather's birth certificate and his census details from 1901 ?

I've found that , over 3 or 4 years , I keep discovering more and more about my grandfather and his brothers in WW1 .

Two of my great uncles were on the Absent Voters' List for 1918 . that will give you all his service details .

Any chance he could have been pensioned out of the service ? (That's where I discovered another great uncle).

My grandfather's records actually survived and are at Kew .

Each year a little more comes to light about all of them . There are so many experts on this site that you will keep noticing new avenues ...

[houseworkfairy]

"I would expect they lost as many pilots through accidents as they did through enemy action in those days"

Lt D G Brown was a keen photographer and there are many pictures of slightly bent aircraft. One is of a Sopwith Pup balanced on its nose, one of a burnt out Sopwith Pup entitled "Sopwith Pup.... after catching fire" and another of a pilot standing beside his upside down and rather bent looking plane entitled "Lt Peebles after his first flight on a Camel"

Funnily enough my Dad who was a pilot in WW2 has the same sort of pictures taken in Florida when he was learning to fly.

[houseworkfairy]

There are named photos of Lts Peebles, Robins and O'Hagan by the way.

[APW]

Houseworkfairy

I have a record of your husband's grandfather from the London Gazette.

The undermentioned cadets to be temp.

2nd Lts. (on prob.);:—

General List (R.F.C.).

16 Aug 1917 list includes "Derek Goudie Brown".

Try searching "RFC Cadets Aug 1917" then carry on down the list if it crosses pages.

There is a Lewis William Robins similarly listed for 7 Mar 1918 which may match with the photos. I can also see two O'Hagan's, John Leo 17 Oct 1917 and Charles Russell 16 Aug 1917

Patrick

[freddy1918]

Adrian

Have you contacted the RAF museum at Hendon? If he was a pilot he will have a two page service record there - I managed to get a complete set for one squadron and they are bound in alphabetical order...

Alex

[houseworkfairy]

Thank you both so much. My mother in law will be so pleased as she was a bit disappointed when I failed to turn up a service record while trawling the films at Kew. Particularly as I found a 26 page one for my Grandad!

[houseworkfairy]

Patrick

Do you know what issue number of the LG? As usual the online archive search engine is not being cooperative.

[APW]

Houseworkfairy

30279 page 13; I notice it refers to Goodie rather than Goudie. I agree it's not easy to find!

Patrick

[houseworkfairy]

Thanks Patrick

Found it and printed it out for my mother in law!

Jacqui

[ade146]

Its great that at least houseworkfairy is getting somewhere. Thanks to the above posts it has prompted me to have another look at the LG but there was nothing of note. The absent voters list is a good idea. Its in the library in Newport and I live in Manchester. Next time Im home I will go and have a look.

I didnt know that RFC pilot records were in Hendon, is that definate? I wouldnt mind a trip there if I thought it would turn something up.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

You could also try the Army List.

[APW]

Adrian

Just to help your research, I have checked the Nov 1917 Army list and there are no Williams EC officers in the RFC. There are six Williams EC's and one in RAMC (an MD FRCS Edin).

I have also looked in the RAF Aug 1918 officers list and there are no Williams EC. There are no matching records in the RAeC certificates - though that is not conclusive.

Patrick

[ade146]

Many thanks for all your replies.

APW, the Nov1917 Army list is that an online database ? Thanks for checking it, and the MD one isnt him. I found a medal card for an ECWilliams RAMC but he was a private. As for the Royal Aero club am I right in thinking they only gave awards for uncommon acts of aviation?

I have written to the BRX but await a reply, Ive also checked AIR78 the incomplete list. He always used the name Charles and not Edwin so it is possible he enlisted with the name CE Williams, although I have looked at that possibilty with the online databases.

I have a set of replacement goggles belonging to him, which are marked Flying Goggle Glasses MKl a with a broad arrow. I have posted photos of these but no one as yet has been able to identify them. The mystery deepens.

Thanks to all who have looked in.

Ade