Lt Vernon William Nutkins

[squirrel]

I have just obtained this officer's service record but it does not tell me that much.

Most of the papers refer to the disposal of his effects and settlement of his account and estate.

He applied for the examination to the RMC Sandhurst on 4/9/14, two weeks short of his 17th birthday and served with 1st Royal Scots Fusiliers and RFC.

The next date on the record is 17/3/06 which says that he was admitted to the Red Cross Hospital at Le Touquet on 14/3/16 suffering from "slight", then something unreadable ending in "itis".

Then from 30/3/16 until 11/9/16 he suffered from catarhal jaundice and gall bladder problems and also contracted measles in an Officer's Convalescent Home in Torqay before rejoining RSF; the advice from the medical board was sent to RSF at Fort matilda, Greenock.

On 4/6/17 he was treated at no 8 CCS and returned to duty on 5/6/17.

On 14/7/17 while with the RFC he was wounded bu there are no other details of this.

He was killed in a flying accident with 48 squadron in Egypt on 19/2/18 and is buried in Ismalia Military Cemetery Egypt.

Any help as to how I can find more about where he served with 1st RSF and RFC would be greatly appreciated.

[Stephen Nulty]

Squirrel

You've probably already seen these mentions from the Times of 19th February 1919, but just in case........

[Dolphin]

Squirrel

The Sky Their Battlefield only says that Lt V W G Nutkins was the observer in a Bristol F2B of No 48 Sqn RFC (the aircraft serial and the pilot's name aren't known) when he was slightly wounded on 14 July 1917. Unfortunately, this doesn't help you much, other than to identify his squadron.

Lt V W Nutkins of No 21 Training Squadron RFC was killed in an accident while flying a Maurice Farman Shorthorn at Ismailia, Egypt, on 19 February 1918.

Regards

Gareth

[squirrel]

Stephen/Gareth,

thanks very much for this.

I have his obituary.

Telegrams to his NOK advising his being wounded show him as being with 48 squadron in July 1917 on both occasions.

Telegram advising of his death states he was with 48 squadron - might he have been attached to 21 Squadron for training or as an instructor?

[Dolphin]

Squirrel

It's a long way from being an observer in a Bristol Fighter squadron on the Western Front to a trainee pilot in Egypt, but I suppose that No 48 Sqn might have remained his 'home' unit.

Gareth

[centurion]

Squirrel

It's a long way from being an observer in a Bristol Fighter squadron on the Western Front to a trainee pilot in Egypt,

Could have been a trainer rather than a trainee. Observers have to be trained as well.

[squirrel]

I meant training in the sense that he could have been training as a pilot or instructing other observers.

As the aircraft he crashed in, a Maurice Farman Shorthorn, was usually used at this stage of the war for pilot training I thought that this would have been the more likely case. Was it ever used for observer training?

[Dolphin]

Squirrel

Airmen Died in the Great War lists Lt V W Nutkins as a pilot. No one else is shown as being involved in his fatal crash, so he may have been flying solo.

Regards

Gareth

[squirrel]

Thanks Gareth - much appreciated.

[squirrel]

Just bringing this one up again; when wounded in July 1917 he was treated at a CCS just to the east of Arras.

Is anybody able to tell me where 48 Squadron were based at the time?

[Killratio]

July 1917 where 48 Squadron were based at the time?

8th May 1917 to 10 July 1917 La Bellevue.

10th July to 15 Sept 1917 Bray Dunes, so they were at Bray Dunes when he was wounded.

This is strange because La Bellavue makes much more sense. Bray Dunes is 50 odd miles north of Arras, La Bellevue is 10 miles south west.

Also strange that he was in Egypt flying...if he was training as a pilot you would have expected that to be in England. If an observer...was he just "joyriding" using bits he had picked up?? Odd all around.

???

Darryl

[squirrel]

Thanks for this - he was wounded twice in July 1917.

On 4th July and returned to duty 5th July - this is when he was treated at the CCs near Arras.

On 17th July when he would have been at Bray Dunes - no CCS or other information given in telegram.

[squirrel]

Have found out some more info from the RSF Museum and his papers and have a few more queries..............

On his second wounding in July he would have been treated at a CCS near Bray Dunes presumably. Which ones were operating in the area at the time?

Where was 48 Squadron based from late July to December 1917?

Did they fly Bris Fits only during this time or were they equipped with other aircraft?

From his accounts; he was paid a messing allowance in December 1917 in Marseilles so I assume that this was en route to Egypt?

Strange that he was flying in Egypt I agree but it was with 21 Training Squadron.

I suppose that we will never know if he was pilot training or possibly joy riding but the Farman Shorthorn was a pilot training machine so I would be inclined to think that he was.

Only other explanation would be if he was training observers if he was joy riding.

As usual any help greatfully received.

[Killratio]

48 Sqn,

15 September 1917 to 22 December 1917 Leffrinckhouke

22 December to 22 March 1918 Champien.

March 1917 equipped with Bristol F2a until July 1917

May 1917 began to recieve Bristol F2b

Generally British squadrons used a single type by this time. There was possibly a "squadron hack" for other duties. Some squadrons may have retained one or two of their previous aircraft type, previously "written off" or slipped through the cracks in the system (eg some aces kept their old mounts for long after new aeroplanes were officially designated). As 48 went to France with the Bristol, I doubt this would apply to them.

Sorry no info on CCS locations.

BTW, from memory "Brisfit" is a post war nickname for the aircraft the correct term durin g wartime was, I believe, "Biff".

cheers

Darryl

[squirrel]

Darryl,

many thanks indeed for this - much appreciated.

[Killratio]

Combats in the Air Report

48 Squadron

12/7/17

Bristol Fighter A7153

Lt R.B. Hay MC Pilot

Nutkins Observer.

17000ft

Location Ghistelles

8 Albatross Scouts, V Struts, All colours

Whilst leading Patrol I dived on Red Albatross Scout which was diving east. EA continued in a vertical dive apparently under control.

I engaged another Black (with yellow rings round the fuselage) Albatross Scout but trigger bar broke.

Observer fired on Albastross Scout on tail of another machine and helped drive it off.

Signed R B Hay

V W G Nutkins

Result:- 1 EA driven down. Lt Pratt reports this machine as going down out of control.

(NOTE the V.W.G Nutkins....the third in memorium above says "George', and Dolphin's post..Airmen Died, V.W.G)

Sorry for the setting out...CitARs are a pain, so I cut some corners.

Darryl

[squirrel]

Darryl,

thanks for this. Haven't been able to find anything on him being known as "George" but I have yet to check his service papers thouroughly. George was his father's first name and a much used name in the family.

Vernon William Nutkins inscribed on his headstone.

On the memorium notices, I know that Mr & Mrs Saunders were his maternal grandparents. Yvonne was his sister and next of kin. Wonder who M.S.M. was ?

There was a claim against his estate from a gentleman from Southport stating that Lt Nutkins was engaged to his daughter. Apart from the claim after his death and an enquiry regarding his being wounded in June 1917 there is nothing else and everything was settled on his sister through the family solicitor and the grandfather as the sister was a minor.

[squirrel]

Checked the service papers last night and the name George, or third intial G, does not appear on anything until his medical board in July 1916.

After this date most of the papers use the intial V W with the odd G appearing here and there.

It is not on any of his entry papers and not on his birth certificate which gives his name as Vernon William.

His late father's name was William George.

[Killratio]

I wonder if M.R.M is the fiancee? It stands to reason that if a claim was made against his estate, there may have been some animosity towards a girl the family may not even have know (or known of??) Just a thought. I wonder how much of his fiancee she was...if you take my meaning?

Unfortunately, as to the "G",some of that generation were rather fond of calling themselves anything but their birth name.

More reason that the "friend"? M.R.M would know him as what he called himself at the time..the family may well prefer to use his proper name.

Just my early morning musings....

Darryl

Oh, I will scan the CitARs again to see if I can spot any MSM..I don't recall seeing anything similar..I really do think the "fiancee" is the best bet.

[squirrel]

Darryl,

thanks once again. As far as I can see from the service record, the "fiancee" got nothing.

It was all paid to Lt Nutkins' sister c/o the solicitors and her grandfather who was her guardian as she was a minor.

Also, as far as I can see, he was never in Stockport during his service and I reckon it most unlikely that he was engaged to be married before he was commisioned as he would have been only just 17 years old at the time. Of course, I suppose that it is possible that he met her while he was ill and convalescing from March to September in 1916 at some hospital or convalescent home; his 19th birthday was in September 1916.

The "fiancee's father", who lived at a Stockport address, was using a correspondence address at a London Hotel in 1918.

In June 1917 he had sent a telegram to the War Office from Stockport, several days after the event, requesting details of the wounds Lt Nutkins had received and what hospital he was in. As he had not been advised directly by the WO I wonder how he had found this out? In the event, Lt Nutkins was wounded and treated on 4th June and released from no 8 CCS on 5th June and the WO advised him of this in late June.

His 1918 correspondence to the grandfather was dealt with by the family solicitors.

While the file on Lt Nutkins may have been "sifted" to remove other papers relating to the "fiancee's" claim, I reckon it was possibly a scam, as all of Lt Nutkins' estate was paid to his sister, and that the man was getting his information from the newspapers.

As for MSM, no family member that I have been able to find with these initals so I wonder if it was one of his colleagues in the RFC or even RSF?

As the initial G after the LW did not appear until mid 1916 I think that this might be likely.

It is an interesting story and I doubt that we will ever know the full details.