Prison or military service. Was this common?

[Matt Dixon]

Searching through the records of the Birmingham Court system, I discovered the name of a chap I have been researching who was convicted in November 1914 for "Three counts of larceny, house breaking and violent resistation [sic] of arrest".

The chap was already serving a suspended sentence for larceny and it is recorded that sentencing was deferred in preference for the accused's enlistment in his majesty's forces for the duration of the European conflict.

Was this an early form of plea bargaining, or was this a common occurrence during the war years?

Incidentally the chap survived the War mainly because he seems to have spent most of the next 4 years in military custody for various offences including insubordination, drunkeness, being AWOL and "an act of gross indecency". Custody or the trenches? Hmm that's a tough one.

[centurion]

Matt

This subject came up about a year ago. There was some debate with a number of posters vehemently declaring that such a thing could not happen and must be some form of myth. I think your posting proves that in at least one case it did.

The problem of avoiding risk through crime was one that the British army struggled with. Do you reward the crimminal by removing him from the firing line? The only alternative being capital punishment. It appears to be one reason why the suspended sentence was widely applied in the latter years of the war (including it would seem suspended death sentences). The Belgian army tackled this problem from 1915 onwards with the introduction of penal companies that performed hard labour and unpleasant and often hazardous duties at the front, under guard. The number of death sentences in the Belgian army as a result fell to almost zero. The German army followed suite and by 1918 had more than 100 penal companies on the Western and Italian fronts, this may also account for the lower number of executions in the German army. It is difficult to find details of conditions in the German penal companies but what little is available suggests that they were prety tough. One writer I've seen suggests that in effect being sentenced to a long stint in a penal company was effectively a death sentence but I've no concrete evidence to support this.

[Matt Dixon]

Thanks for the reply. It makes me wonder whether it was the accused or the Beak who suggested joining up!

[truthergw]

I can see the logic behind penal battalions and recognise that they were an answer to a problem. There is a question I have pondered, how were they officered? From NCO upwards ? What was the motivation for NCOs and officers to perform their duties, were they themselves miscreants?

[centurion]

From what little I can find out they were companies not battalions. I think that their guards provided the nco component (a bit like the short MP in the 'Dirty Dozen'. I don't know how the Belgians organised things but there were certainly German units of soldiers acting as guards for penal companies who were not themselves 'crimminal' (although I can't imagine it was a high status posting). I've seen an entry in a German ancestry site where someone's ancester is identified as being in one of these units.

[archangel9]

Searching through the records of the Birmingham Court system, I discovered the name of a chap I have been researching who was convicted in November 1914 for "Three counts of larceny, house breaking and violent resistation [sic] of arrest".

The chap was already serving a suspended sentence for larceny and it is recorded that sentencing was deferred in preference for the accused's enlistment in his majesty's forces for the duration of the European conflict.

Was this an early form of plea bargaining, or was this a common occurrence during the war years?

I believe one of the men I am researching was given the same choice - basically either join up or go to prison in 1914. His "crime" was local union organisation looking for a better wage for agricultural workers. He was killed in action in October 1917. I don't have the documentary proof yet but I hope to obtain it. How available are court records of the time?

John

[Ghost]

Here is another case, so maybe it did happen. Found in a Local paper, 1915.

Alan

[Terry_Reeves]

Serving prisoners were also released for military service. The Times (March 1916) published an article about the closure of some 20 prisons for economy and also the rapidly falling crime rate, apparently brought about by the war. The paper noted that "Some hundreds of young men have been let out of Borstal institutions to enlist: and 10 per cent of those had, in the first year, gained non-commissioned rank. That is a most admirable omen."

John

His local newspaper would be your best bet which is likely to have given a verbatim account. I would be suprised though if he had appeared before the courts simply for his legitimate trade union activities. I would guess there must have been something else behind it.

TR

[archangel9]

Serving prisoners were also released for military service. The Times (March 1916) published an article about the closure of some 20 prisons for economy and also the rapidly falling crime rate, apparently brought about by the war. The paper noted that "Some hundreds of young men have been let out of Borstal institutions to enlist: and 10 per cent of those had, in the first year, gained non-commissioned rank. That is a most admirable omen."

John

His local newspaper would be your best bet which is likely to have given a verbatim account. I would be suprised though if he had appeared before the courts simply for his legitimate trade union activities. I would guess there must have ben something else behind it.

TR

Terry,

I believe he and others may have been brought before the court and fined. Then inprisoned for refusing to pay the fine and eventually offered military service as a way out. But I cannot be sure until I find proof.

John

[Bingo794]

I only just spotted this thread and wondered if the offer of military service, rather than a trip to borstal/prison had gone beyond WW1 or WW2?

I have a brother who in the 1960's was a bit of a tearaway and scrapper. The usual black sheep, always upto something.

On one occasion he ended up in court on a charge of poaching/trespass (that was the norm in Lincolnshire), assaulting a policeman, and fighting in the market square with some beery lads from the next town, after a dance. All charges were heard on the same day, though they had happened over a period of time.

It is a bit of a family joke, but he swears it is true. The local landowner was presiding over the court and basically offered my older brother the option of a trip to borstal or going in the army.

His term in the army was the making of him. He got a trade, a job for 22 years, a grand pension. He was busted a good few times, but it generally did him good.

Would this sort of thing gone on in the 60's, or is he winding me and the family up?

Dick W

[tony paley]

Bingo,

As a retired 'bobby' I can confirm that some Magistrates would suggest this, however during the late 60s the Army brought in conditions of entry that more or less put a stop to the practice. It became a matter of discretion at the recruiting office.

tony P

[bruce]

Slightly off track, but what did the Army do with a conscript who simply said NO.

No....I won't double across to the guard room

No....I won't pick up that rifle.

No....I won't do 20 press-ups

etc.

I suppose solitary in the glass house might result, but the conscript would still be away from danger, so is that how the Army coped with one who just would not comply?

Bruce

[Vista52]

It happened to my brother-in-law in the early 60's. He came from Hornsey and was involved in a gang fight with some guys from Finsbury Park. He told me he was given the choice between Prison or the Middlesex Regiment. He eventually deserted and when caught, spent time in the Military Prison on Gibraltar and in Colchester. I went to see him with my sister when he was in Colchester and I have an endearing memory of a big Sgt giving me a great big cuppa tea in an enormous enamel mug.

[truthergw]

Slightly off track, but what did the Army do with a conscript who simply said NO.

No....I won't double across to the guard room

No....I won't pick up that rifle.

No....I won't do 20 press-ups

etc.

I suppose solitary in the glass house might result, but the conscript would still be away from danger, so is that how the Army coped with one who just would not comply?

Bruce

Any provost sergeant could make a recruit's life a misery in the guard room or even just confined to barracks. Wakened up at 3.A.M. with a bucket of cold water over one in one's bed and told to scrub the floor dry with a toothbrush, is the sort of tale that used to be told. If he continued to refuse to obey orders, he could end up in a military prison. The movie, " The Hill" with Sean Connery gives some idea of what that might entail. It would take a very determined non co-operator to withstand that sort of pressure. Presumably, one who did, would have registered as a C.O. and never have got that far. The option was always there to declare someone not likely to make a soldier and give him a discharge but it would not be easy.

[bob lembke]

This sort of choice was very common in the US. My father came to the US in 1926, after having served in the German Army in the Great War, and he thought the practice very disreputable, reflecting badly on the US military of the period. A good friend of mine stole a car, probably in the early 1980's, and he was given the choice of civilian imprisonment or six years in the US Navy. He took the latter, and he feels that it steered him away from a bad course. He is a rough bloke, motorcycle type, but is closing in on a school principalship and a doctorate in history. His bulk, ink, and muscles are a good influence on school discipline.

Bob Lembke

[Nicktoucans]

I had an Uncle who served with the Highland Light Infantry. I remember him saying that historically, it was common practice for the HLI to recruit men from a certain infamous Glasgow prison. Possibly Barlinnie? I don't know if this applied during the Great War or if it was in previous campaigns.

[schooner]

Any provost sergeant could make a recruit's life a misery in the guard room or even just confined to barracks. Wakened up at 3.A.M. with a bucket of cold water over one in one's bed and told to scrub the floor dry with a toothbrush, is the sort of tale that used to be told. If he continued to refuse to obey orders, he could end up in a military prison. The movie, " The Hill" with Sean Connery gives some idea of what that might entail. It would take a very determined non co-operator to withstand that sort of pressure. Presumably, one who did, would have registered as a C.O. and never have got that far. The option was always there to declare someone not likely to make a soldier and give him a discharge but it would not be easy.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. You can, however, make it wish it bloodywell had.

[1st_east_yorks]

So that's where they got the idea for "The Dirty Dozen"...................