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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Cameronian Uniforms - info needed please


MargoH

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I'm afraid I don't have any of the epaulettes as yet, but when i'm back up at the stores next week i'll take some more better ones. Out of interest P.B., where did you come across the plate you posted further up the thread, it's very nice :) As I said, we don't have a great deal of information on the 1st LRV, and as far as I'm aware, the uniform I posted above is the only one have from that particular unit. There is nothing on paper to indicate that the hat is in anyway connected to that uniform, and I have to confess to know absolutely nothing about their insignia - the crown to me suggests Major, but I'v not seen a rank badge worn like a cap badge before.

Thanks

Barrie

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Barrie,

Th picture is one of the plates from "Records of the Scottish Volunteer Force 1859-1908" by Lt.Gen.Sir James Moncreiff Grierson K.C.B.,C.V.O.,C.M.G.,A.D.C.

It is one of 47 coloured pictures of the Scottish Volunteers in the book.

P.B.

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P.B.

Managed to get a photograph of one of the epaulettes - one crown (major?) and a small brass/guilt T - presumably for territorials. I'm really unsure of when this tunic dates from - the buttons are black, plastic, with the Kings Crown and the Light Infantry Horn/Bugle.

post-9547-1200069209.jpg

Barrie

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Thanks,

Nice picture,yes the "T" is for territorial which as you will know dates it post 1908 and the rank is major. I cannot unfortunatly add anything further except I think the crown on the side cap might be unofficial or a latter addition.

It does appear to be positioned in rather a strange place on the cap.

P.B.

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Barrie,

You may find that these early pattern Rifle buttons are actually blackhorn rather than black plastic and there is also a superb photo in Ray Westlakes "The Volunteer Infantry 1880-1908" of the Honorary Colonel John A Roxburgh V.D. in uniform.

Graham.

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P.B., Graham, many thanks for the information on the tunic/cap.

I'm still slightly confused with this uniform as a whole. It was my understanding (probably way off the mark) that the 1st LRV became the 5th Bn Scottish Rifles in 1908 - if this was the case, would they still have stuck to the LRV uniform? It's quite worrying that we don't know things like this - but unfortunately there is almost no paper trail for this uniform, and we're sorely lacking in any decent reference material with regards to uniform from any era, never mind Volunteer uniforms.

Very grateful for your help with this one.

Barrie

P.S. Westlake's book now ordered - thanks for the tip :)

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Barrie,

It wasn't uncommon for many former V.B.'s to continue wearing Volunteer grey long after many V.B.'s adopted scarlet, but is uncommon not to adopt your designated title, and by rights they should have become the 1st Volunteer Bn, Scottish Rifles. Instead they continued to be called 1st LRV.

Even after 1908 on becoming Territorials many old grey clad units continued to wear it, rather than go into scarlet and the 5th Cameronians(as they'd now become) were one of those units.

Out of interest another one to remain in grey was the 4th Bn, Northumberland Fusiliers, formerly 1st V.B.,N.F., as can be seen with this 1909 pattern tunic from my collection.

Graham.

post-7376-1200177135.jpg

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Nice tunic Graham, thanks for posting it. I'm going to trawl through the books and see if I can find any more on the uniform we have, and the unit(s) involved.

Thanks for the information.

Barrie

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Managed to locate some journals for the 1st LRV covering the early 1900s - after 1908 the journal becomes the Fifth Battalion Scottish Rifles Gazette. In the 1908 edition there is a list of all the officers and men who remained in the unit after the change over to TF. Among the names is a Pte. W. R. Hutchison, listed under No. 3 Company ( C ). I'm not sure what the full name of the man in the photographs at the start of the thread is, but I wondered if this W R Hutchison could be the same 'Willie Hutchison'?

Aly's Mum mentioned that the medal card for the man in the photo's showed service with the KOSB, I couldn't see any W or William Hutchisons that served with both the Scottish Rifles and the KOSB, but I did come across one William Hutchison with a very early 5th Bn number:

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...;resultcount=48

Given that the chap in the photograph is shown wearing late 1st LRV/early 5th Bn dress, I wondered if this card could be his (assuming again that it's the same W. R. Hutchison from the 1908 Gazette?

Does any of this tie in with any of the info you have Aly's Mum?

We have Gazettes from the late 1880s until 1914, so I can have a wee dig through them if you think we might be onto something here.

Cheers

Barrie

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After receiving so much help with the uniform I posted in this thread, thought I'd add another image - this time of an officers cap in the 5th Bn Scottish Rifles. It is of a very similar style to that Willie Hutchison is holding in the original post - although this is described as an officers hat in our records (for all that means!).

post-9547-1200936109.jpg

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Sorry Grumpy - i'll empty some room. I'm afraid I don't really know much at all about this Battalion (but i'm learning :P) especially not in terms of Regimental Numbers. I do have access to the Battalion Gazette, both pre and post 1908 - although to be honest there doesn't appear to be a whole lot in them other than musketry competition results. I'll be going through them in more detail over the next few weeks, if I come across anything regarding numbering, I'll be sure to let you know.

Cheers

Barrie

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Gentlemen,

I haven't been on the forum for a wee while so I am pleasantly surprised to find people are still posting new information - very many thanks to all of you! You have added enormously to our store of knowledge. I will take my time to sift through your comments to summarise what we know so that I've got it straight.

If I've understood this correctly, he joined the LRV first, before being transferred around into other units. His MIC has 6 entries. All show him as "Pte" except one, in which he is described as "A/CPl" - Acting Corporal I suppose [in the KOSB, for what it#'s worth]. His medals read "Pte W. Hutchison" which I'm presuming was because Private was his substantive rank.

And yes we believe he did serve in Germany - we fell heir to a wall clock which he apparently acquired during that period.

There is some handwritten parts on his MIC which I can't quite decipher - I'll post on that in a new thread though.

This has been really illuminating and I am very grateful for all your help.

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Barrie,

The National Archives ref you gave is the one I am taking to be our Willie Hutchison. It shows 5 enrtries with Scottish Rifles and 1 with KOSB. Would it help if I posted the image here? I have an image and I also transcribed it as best I could (there are some handwritten entries I can't understand).

We are not aware of him having a middle name (he was born in Ireland so his birth certificate is unobtainable). He would have been 17 in 1908. We are also not aware of him having served prior to the outbreak of war (doesn't mean he didn't!).

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His MIC has 6 entries.

Not quite sure if I am following you correctly, but like Barrie I also couldn't find one MIC that matched the Scottish Rifles and KOSB.

The confusion may be that all National Archives references for MICs that you order for £3.50 will return a sheet showing 6 MICs - these are separate MICs for 6 different individuals. This may be whatis confusing the issue. If not, you have my apologies.

Stuart

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Stuart, thank you for pointing out that all MICs have entries for 6 people! That clears things up a bit. I'll have to go away and have another think now.

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Aly's Mum,

If the card with the two Scottish Rifles numbers (as linked above) is on the set of 6 you downloaded, I think there is a good chance this might be our man. If you could post it up we can have a look and see if there is anything else on it that might help.

W R Hutchison is on the list of soldiers that transferred to the 5th Bn from the 1st LRV in 1908. I'm guessing that would mean there is a pretty good chance of him having a fairly low 5th Bn Number (the number on the MIC linked above is 23 if I remember correctly).

W R Hutchison doesn't appear on the list of all 5th Bn ranks who arrived in France in November 1914 and who qualified for the 1914 Star - this would tend to tie in with the fact that he is wearing only the British War and Victory Medals in one the photo's you posted.

Of course, the William Hutchison from the MIC, the W R Hutchison from the 1908 list in the 5th Bn Gazette, and your Willie Hutchison could all be different people - but certain bits of the puzzle do seem to fit.

Barrie

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Barrie,

On another thread, 'Aly's Mum' states that, 'We have the BWM and Victory Medal of a relative. Inscribed on both medals is the same info: 315034 Pte W Hutchison SCO RIF'.

The MIC related to this regt. number is now linked in three separate posts on this other thread so hopefully, working from the Catalogue Reference and Image Reference, it can be determined whether the correct document has, or has not, been ordered. It sounds like 'has not', if none of the MICs show #315034.

All the best,

Stuart

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Gentlemen, you are all doing a fantastic job for me.

I'm now posting the MIC which I ordered. The last entry (bottom right) carries the magic number 315034, although it would be easy to read one or both of the digits '3' as 5 or 8.

That is obviously NOT the one with the very low number - sorry!

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