Kitchener's Armies

[Old Tom]

Hello,

A Merry Christmas to all!

A current thread on army troops indicates that Kitchener's plan to form a number of armies included battalions to serve as army troops in each army. This was new to me. It suggests that K's intention was that the armies would be deployed as such, rather than as I have understood, inpractice, the individual divisions moving to France and being attached to existing Corps for training and then taking over part of the line as required. In other words that the composition of the BEF's armies was decided by BEF.

I am left with a question. Is there any relation between K's armies and the Armies of the BEF ? and, was there provision in K's plan for the setting up of Corps and Army headquarters and all the other establishments necessary to turn a number of divisons into operational armies?

Old Tom

Old Tom

[Ron Clifton]

Hello Old Tom

K's original plan was to send out the newly raised divisions in groups of six, plus supporting troops, under a separate Army command in each case, hence "First New Army" etc. For one reason or another this idea was soon dropped and the British First and Second Armies were formed on Boxing Day 1914.

I have never been able to discover whether "New Corps" were to be formed as well. It is likely that they would have been, whatever they may have been called, to conform to the BEF and French practice, but the idea was so short-lived that things probably never got that far.

Presumably Kitchener, who originally had a low opinion of Territorials, was persuaded otherwise and so various TF units went to France (and Egypt, and India) before any of the New Armies took the field.

Troops at home were originally divided into First, Second and Third Armies under "Central Force". See Becke, Part 4 for details.

Ron

[Graham Stewart]

Under Army Order 324 of September 1914 "Augmentation of the Army ", the first batch of "Army Troops - Attached for training to" were;-

11th Bn, Kings Regt - attached 8th(Light)Division renamed 14th(Light)Division became Pioneer Bn of the 14th Div Janauary 1915.

8th Bn, Devonshire Regt - attached 8th(Light)Division renamed 14th(Light)Division. Left 14th Div May 1915 and to 20th Bde/7th Div.

6th Bn, Bedfordshire Regt - attached 9th(Scottish)Division. To 112th Bde/37th Div March 1915.

6th Bn, Leicestershire Regt - attached 9th(Scottish)Division. To 110th Bde/37th Div April 1915.

10th Bn, Hampshire Regt - attached 10th(Irish)Division. To 29th Bde/10th Div March 1915.

5th Bn, Dorsetshire Regt - attached 11th(Northern)Division. To 34th Bde/11th Div Jan 1915.

5th Bn, Northamptonshire Regt - attached 12th(Eastern)Division. Became Pioneer Bn, 12th Div Jan 1915.

5th Bn, Wiltshire Regt - attached 13th(Western)Division. To 40th Bde/13th Div replacing 8th Bn,Welsh Regt Dec 1914.

Graham.

[Stephen Barker]

Interesting thread this.

Graham

Do you know when the 8th East Lancs were attached for training?

Stephen

[Graham Stewart]

They're certainly not among those listed in Army Order 382 of October 1914 - "Augmentation of the Army" Army Troops list, nor in Army Order 388 of October 1914 Army Troops section, which concentrates on the formation of the six divisions from 21st - 26th Divisions, but they are there with 74th Bde/25th Div. However according to Brig James and his "British Regiments 1914-1918", they seem to have been replaced around November 1914, as they then become Army Troops with 25th Div, but I'm afraid I don't have AO's for this period to confirm this. They move again in March 1915 to 112th Bde/37th Div.

For them to be removed from a formation already under construction, seems to be pretty serious, so either they were lagging in training or under establishment due to losses under training. Infact both the 8th Bn, East Lancs and 8th Bn, Kings Own in 74th Bde/25th Div are replaced by the 11th Bn, Lancs Fus and 13th Bn, Cheshires. The 11th Bn, Lancs Fus had been an "Army Troop" battalion with 25th Div, but their status was upgraded, but the 13th Bn, Cheshire are sent direct from Chester in October 1914.

Graham.

[Old Tom]

Hello,

The deployment of K's armies, even if circumstances had allowed them to deploy as formations, depended on the component units being trained and equiped. I gather that at the stage that K was aiming at some 50, or so, divisions, there was only artillery equipment available for about 25. When reinforcements for the BEF were urgently required the only trained forces available were the Indian Army.

I am left with the impression that although K appreciated the need for an army of continental proportions and set on foot the measure to provide the manpower, considerations of equipment and to some extent training were overlooked. That is probably not surprising as K was pitchforked into the S of S for War seat at very short notice and his experience meant that he was not aware of War Office plans - even if there were any other than for deploying the BEF.

Old Tom