Winter warfare: techniques, tactics, equipment

[centurion]

Thanks: what is the original or contemporary source for this photo? Turkish illustrated newspaper?

John

German illustrated paper - our gallant allies and that sort of thing.

[MartH]

Now this is turning into an interesting thread, sorry for the delay in posting, bit hard to scan with the descreening.

Caption reads: With Field kitchen at Battle of River Aa, In middle picture 1st Lieutenant Oesch

Note ski's in right of picture.

Top picture caption: Ski detachment at River Aa

Top picture: Platoon Leader, later Lieutenant General Unio Sarlin in winter kit

Bottom picture: Practising sking Libau

Regards

Mart

[John Gilinsky]

Thanks Mart for posting these interesting pics. First I think these are FINNISH troops probably during the War of Liberation during 1918 - 1919 that the Finns fought with German support of course against the Bolsheviks. I think the wording is Finnish rather than German. What source did you take these from? A Finnish history?

Good pictures though showing camouflag, skis and the like.

I would hope to do a detailed comparative table showing who was the BEST equipped at any given time for winter defensive and/or offensive operations during 1914-1919 in the European theater of operations.

We still though should not loose sight of winter campaigns or actions and how they were perceived by the General staffs and lesser staffs (say corps and divisional) of different armies.

Thanks again Mart for your consideration and kind words about this thread.

John

[Pete1052]

As long as we're speaking about wars fought in cold climates, I have an anecdote. In April 1943 after my dad was drafted, the recruits at the reception station asked an elderly master sergeant what his medal ribbons stood for. He identified them one by one, and when he got to the last one, the one he was proudest of, he said, "...and this, gentlemen, is the ribbon of the Siberian Expeditionary Force!"

[MartH]

Morning John,

Sorry, I was so rushed I left off a more detailed explanation and bibliographic details. The scans are from Jägarnas Historia by Olof Enckell, 1943, published by Soderstrom & Co Forlagsaktiebolag.

The unit is the 27th Jaeger Battalion on the Eastern Front near Riga, the River Aa runs into the Gulf of Riga on the Baltic Coast. The 27th Jaeger Battalion where the volunteers serving in the German army, Germany command structure, German equipment, nothing of Finnish origin except the men. The photos where taken in 1917 or early 1918 before the unit had returned to Finland, I doubt if the pictures where staged for the book, it has other pictures which are clearly original.

The language is Swedish its very different from Finnish.

Regards

Mart

[Heid the Ba]

Just a quick point about Mart's last photo: The troops on the left are ski-ing uphill, some by traversing the slope with the skis parallel, others herringboning straight up. Those on the right appear to be ski-ing down, which on skis of that vintage is much more of a challenge.

Great photos Mart, thanks.

[MartH]

Heid the Ba'

You are correct they are going up hill, I have inspected the photos enlarged and they reveal more, should edit the post and replace with cropped photo's enlarged? Especially the sking and mobile kitchen ones?

I am well aware of Finns going on Ski's uphill, about 12 years ago after my cousin had finished his military training as an Marine Jaeger, and he had spent living outdoors for 3 months on ski in minus 30, he came downhill skiing with me in France for 4 days. He had done only half a days downhill before that, he went uphill on ski's everywhere, and did black runs easily on the first day - most annoying. If these guys had lived outside, which they had, no problems on skis anywhere .

Oesch became a general too, as did 2.5% of the Skiers in the photo!

If you need more info on the BEF in Northern Russia I have the Official History, I will look later, sorry I did not mention it earlier. I do not have the one covering Siberia, - yet!

Mat

[Heid the Ba]

Mart, if you could post enlarged photos of the kitchen and ski-ing that would be great. I'm curious what their bindings look like but I doubt there is enough detail. I'm guessing a clip at the toe and leather straps to hold the boot in place, but allowing the heel to lift.

Interesting to compare the length and tip profiles of the Finnish/German skis with the Turkish. Ok, interesting for me.

I must learn to telemark properly for the alpine slopes. Nothing looks classier.

And now we return to your scheduled war . . .

[MartH]

Just found this report of the Battle of Aa New York Times Aa Report

It would have been fought in very wintry conditions.

Mart

[MartH]

I've had trouble enlarging the pictures, but found another one from the ski slopes, and a one detailing the actual "kit".

Been talking to my mother, the Finns where asked by the the Germans if they could ski, the reply "was a little" they had proper German training and equipment, and after they'd taught the German instructors how to ski, formed more that just a small detachment and did aggressive ski patrols. The hero of Suomussalmi in the Winter War, Colonel Siilasvuo was amongst them.

Mart

[Procat]

This image is from 'Uniforms & Equipment of the British Army in World War I' by Stephen J Chambers.

It is captioned: A North Staffordshire Other Rank in winter issued 'wooly bear', Gor' blimey and thigh-length rubber waders. 'Gum boots were manufactured by various rubber companies in Britain, and kept in 'Trench Stores' for frontline issue.

Doug

[NoRemorseDK]

"The authorities made arrangements for baths as soon as they could, and the men went into Armientieres where they bathed and were served with clean underclothing, their coats and trousers being ironed, especially about the seams, to eradicate any little strangers who might have taken up their habitation there."

I can't help wondering how many more "little strangers" would have taken up residence in what, at least to them, must have been the five star accommodation offered by goat-skin coats!

Surprisingly few, as "little strangers" or lice would need proximity to the body to live.

Quite another matter as long as the goat skin is still on the goat!

[NigelS]

Surprisingly few, as "little strangers" or lice would need proximity to the body to live.

can't argue with that, a valid point

Quite another matter as long as the goat skin is still on the goat!

This raises another point, for a goat there is no option: the fur has to be on the outside (!) but, for a soldier, wouldn't it have been warmer & more practical to wear the fur on the inside? two reasons come to mind: 1) there will a large number of small pockets of air trapped between the fur and the next layer of clothing (in the same way as a string vest), which ought to be warmer than having the much larger space given when worn with fur outwards. 2) With the fur on the outside, in certain weather conditions, there must have been a tendency for a build up of frost/ice (and, for that matter, mud) to form between the fur hairs which would not have been as easy to remove as from a "naked" skin (the practicality of this would, of course, also depend on what treatment these fleeces would have had & how waterproof they were)

As Inuits have a lot of experience of clothing for cold weather, I had a look at some pictures of them wearing Parkas on the web, but, although they're clearly trimmed with long fur on the cuffs, bottoms & hoods, it's not clear - at least on the images I've looked at - as to whether the fur is inwards or outwards on the rest of the garment.

Procat thanks for the picture from 'Uniforms & Equipment of the British Army in World War I'; The London Rifle Brigade obviously didn't get issued with these thigh length rubber waders when they were at Ploegsteert in December '14 as The History of the LRB 1859-1919 makes the following statement:

No small amount of pluck was required to step into trenches, which generally had two feet or more of cold icy water in them, on a dark night, knowing that boots and putties would be soaking wet for two, three, or four days, as the case might be.

Even if they had had the benefit of the waders, standing around in them in two foot of icy water must still have been ******* cold as they couldn't have offered much in the way of insulation! Another item of essential winter equipment is also mentioned in the L.R.B History:

Old buckets were used as braziers for the charcoal, which burned without smoke and was made behind the line at Steenwerck

and, in reference to sandbags - which reads like the modern day joke (How men men does it take to....?), but certainly wouldn't have been one to those having to do it at the time:

Three men were required for filling a sandbag - one to hold it open, one to shovel, and one to scrape the mud off the shovel - and the bags when filled were of little use,for the mixture of clay and water could not be moulded into any proper shape: moreover no one had been taught the right way of revetting.

Slightly off topic, as it doesn't strictly fall into "techniques, tactics, equipment", but on a seasonal note, the L.R.B. History (again for 1914) gives:

The Germans were also determined to keep the Christmas season if they could, and their trenches on 24th December were outlined with fairy lights, while Christmas trees were in evidence as well.

Hope they didn't have the same difficulties I've been having this year with blown lamps!

Seasons Greetings to all

NigelS

[centurion]

There is an old 19th century verse about making proper 'Indian' winter clothing which has lots of lines about the outside being the in side and the inside being the out side, the furside being the in side and the skin side being the outside etc. Thats why sheepskin jackets (as worn by WW1 aircrew) have the fleece on the inside. There is a painting that seems to be based on that photo which is reproduced on a set of cigarette cards of territorial regiments. One can't help wondering if the whole thing wasn't a posed photo - the fur looks so much more impressive that way. It works better for the goat (as with most furry animals) as it can use a whole series of muscles in its skin etc to fluff out its coat in cold weather thus trapping air between the hairs.

[NigelS]

Hi Centurion

There is an old 19th century verse about making proper 'Indian' winter clothing which has lots of lines about the outside being the in side and the inside being the out side, the furside being the in side and the skin side being the outside etc.

Also sounds very much along the lines of a 19th century music hall monologue!

One can't help wondering if the whole thing wasn't a posed photo

Procat's picture from 'Uniforms & Equipment of the British Army in World War I' does, from the less than realistic background, look like a studio photo, The History of the London Rifle Brigade 1859-1919 (publ 1921), which appears to have been based on the experiences of those who had actually been there (?) does, however, say "The authorities provided goat-skin coats, worn with the hair outside"

NigelS

[Procat]

Procat's picture from 'Uniforms & Equipment of the British Army in World War I' does, from the less than realistic background, look like a studio photo, The History of the London Rifle Brigade 1859-1919 (publ 1921), which appears to have been based on the experiences of those who had actually been there (?) does, however, say "The authorities provided goat-skin coats, worn with the hair outside"

NigelS

The book has about 7 photographs of soldiers wearing the coats. A number are obviously posed studio shots however at least four are taken in the outdoors including a group photo of six soldiers. All are wearing the fur on the outer. One photograph contains the caption 'The sheep or goatskin coats were great on a cold and frosty morning, however when it rained, they became a smelly and sodden burden.'

This photograph is captioned: 'A soldier wrapped up warmly in an animal fur coat and Gor'blimey with foul weather cover. "Wooly Bears", also nicknamed "Teddy-bears" and "Stinkers" became popular during the first winters of the war until adequate supplies of leather jerkins became available.'

Doug