German & Turkish planes Palestine

[Jimo16]

Hello,

I would appreciate some help on the subject of German and Turkish/Ottoman planes in service during the Palestine Campaign (1917-18). What colours would the German planes have (I saw a colour picture which had one in sand colours) and what colours the few Turkish/Ottoman planes? Did the Turks have the same markers as seen at the Dardanelles (large black square with a white rim)?

Could some Gentleman point me to some links, pics or infos?

Thank you!

Cheers

James

[centurion]

The large black square was the standarg Ottoman marking (In post WW1 Turkey it became the red square as used today) The marking was derived from the German marking in that planes were delivered to Turkey with the standard German cross in place but there were religious objections made about this and so the white spaces between the arms of the crosses were painted in to make a black square.

Off topic but related when I was working in Saudi in the 1990s the Metawi (religious police) raided a model shop in Al Khobar and removed all the German decals from model aircraft kits (but left swastickas if they were on a seperate sheet!)

Re colour - I did some research on this some years ago when modelling a Rumpler C1 used in Palestine 1917. This appears to have been in the standard German Grey as used in Europe C1915

[Jimo16]

... marking was derived from the German marking in that planes were delivered to Turkey with the standard German cross in place but there were religious objections made about this ... Saudi in the 1990s the Metawi (religious police) raided a model shop in Al Khobar and removed all the German decals from model aircraft kits ...

Centurion,

many thanks, that was some help. I was aware of the over-painting of the German crosses, but not sure if this was the case in Palestine too. Hadn't heard of the "religious" background. But it makes sense (from a muslim point of view). I had assumed that they just did it in the beginning to cover up that these were German planes.

LOL because of the raid in Saudi Arabia. Amazing ... but then ... not really.

Cheers

James

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

If you can find the webb site for the Australian Flying Corps it has drawings of her aircraft from 1 Sqn AFC which show the painting of such planes.

The webb address escapes me at present.

Cheers

S.B

[Jimo16]

... If you can find the webb site for the Australian Flying Corps ... webb address escapes me at present.

Thanks Steve! I assume you had www.australianflyingcorps.org/ on your mind. Tried it too but it doesn't seem to be working. I read the official reports of them on the official governmental memorial website (great website). Really helpful with info pertaining to the Aussies (but also Brits) air involvement. Gave me some details about the actions, which planes were involved (also on the German side) etc. But no mention of colours (of German or Turkish planes) or markings of the Turks.

Cheers

James

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

This is on my ready to use sites and may helpl

http://www.australianflyingcorps.org/2004_...llofhonour.html

Cheers

S.B

[domsim]

Hi james

try this website it has a good selection of coloured profiles:

Turkish airforce ww1

The best book on the subject is available on cd here:

Turkish airforce

scroll down and you want 'Ottoman Aviation 1909-1919' by O Nikolajsen & B.Yilmazer. Very detailed on all aspects of the Ottoman airforce and some about German units as well.

Cheers

Dominic

[James A Pratt III]

According to some old notes I got off The Aerodrome.com" The Turks adopted the red square insignia for aircraft in 1913but changed to the black square in WW I Army aircraft 1915 Navy aircraft in April 1916.

[centurion]

According to some old notes I got off The Aerodrome.com" The Turks adopted the red square insignia for aircraft in 1913but changed to the black square in WW I Army aircraft 1915 Navy aircraft in April 1916.

Is there any photographic evidence of any Turkish air craft with any markings in 1913? If so it would mean that the Turks were ahead of everybody else! TTBOMK the only aircraft in use by the Turks in 1913 belonged to German mercenary pilots who supplied their own aircraft as part of the deal.

Germany did begin considering the use of aircraft national markings in 1913 (originally deciding on a black circle before finally arriving at cross) but nothing was implemented until 1914.

[centurion]

Further to the above - it would seem that the Turks did mark aircraft before 1914 but NOT with red squares - they used a crescent and star. see link

Turkish aircraft

As per previous posting it still appears that the black square was the result of painting over German crosses and the red version was post WW1

[Paul Treclyn]

I have a piece of a German plane shot down at Latron, Palestine in 1918. The inscription written on the back of it says:

Piece of German Plane brought down by English Plane at Latron. May 23 1918 Palestine

Part of Iron Cross

Taken off plane whilst it was burning by Ben J Noot

The fragment, about 12cm square, is clearly part of a white cross on a black background.

[domsim]

I have a piece of a German plane shot down at Latron, Palestine in 1918. The inscription written on the back of it says:

Piece of German Plane brought down by English Plane at Latron. May 23 1918 Palestine

Part of Iron Cross

Taken off plane whilst it was burning by Ben J Noot

The fragment, about 12cm square, is clearly part of a white cross on a black background.

Hi Paul

Interesting, this relic probably comes from the plane of Vfw. Gustav Schniedewind of the German Jasta 55/1F based at Jenin who was listed as lost, wounded in action on 23/5/1918. Probably either an Albatros DIII or DV (tropical).

and this is probably Ben J Noot from the medal index cards at Kew:

Description Medal card of Noot, Benjamin J

Royal Army Medical Corps 49300 Private

Wiltshire Regiment 46588 Private

Date 1914-1920

Catalogue reference WO 372/15

Cheers

Dominic

[domsim]

And looking at the CWGC site he sadly didn't survive the war:

Name: NOOT, BENJAMIN JOHN

Initials: B J

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment/Service: Wiltshire Regiment

Unit Text: 1st/4th Bn.

Age: 24

Date of Death: 22/10/1918

Service No: 46588

Additional information: Son of Charles and Anne Noot, of 11, Victoria Gardens Rd Neath, Glam.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: BB. 67.

Cemetery: RAMLEH WAR CEMETERY

Cheers

Dominic

[Kurt1959]

Hi Lawrence,

just to make it easier for the colleagues from the forum I write in Englisch ...aber Deutsch wäre mir lieber...;-))) I have many information about the German planes and pilots in Palestine but it is a bit hard to but the documents online. I could copy it and send it to you. If you have access to a good libary I would like to recommend the following books:

"The Air War Çanakkale - Hava Savaşlar' from Bülent Yilmazer ISBN: 975-8559-08-7 (The best book about the Turkish Airforce I have seen!)

"El Schahin - Der Jagdfalke" Aus meinem Fliegerleben - Von Oberleutnant Hans Joachim Buddecke, Berlin 1918

"Unsere Luftstreitkräfte 1914-182 Berlin 1930, mit dem Aufsatz von Major Hellmuth Felmy "Mit der Fliegerabteilung 300 in Palästina"

But he best resource is the Bundesarchiv/Militärarchiv in Freiburg with the diary of Major Serno "Ausbau, Organisation und Tätigkeit der türkischen Luftstreitkräfte im 1. Weltkrieg", BA/MA Msg 1/231 as well as the

Bayrische Hauptstaatsarchiv, Abt. IV Kriegsarchiv, Sammelbestand Nachrichten u. Kraftfahrer, Luftschiffer u. Flieger, Flak 54, Bayr. Fliegerabteilung 304b. There you will find hundrets of wonderful pictures, which were safed, when the Fliegerabteilung withdrew from Palestine. If you are, as I guess, are a proud Bavarian, Munich shouldn't be too far for you. That are first hand information and better then every book!!!!

best regards und servus

Klaus alias El Shahin

[bob lembke]

Hi, Klaus, alias El Shahin;

I have long wanted to ask you: is "El Shahin" Arabic, or Turkish? The article is Arabic, but it might also be Turkish. Or both.

Bob

[Kurt1959]

Hi Bob,

the "El" is not new Turkish and I guess it comes from the Persian/Ararbic roots. "Şahın" is falcon in Farsi as well in Turkish language and "Falke" oder "Jagdfalke" in German. I couldn't find the word in Ottoman language, which would give the answer. Anyway, Buddecke got the name by somebody and his writing was like seen on the book - very typical because the Germans didn't know how to write the "Ş" other then "Sch"...

Best regards

Klaus

[Paul Treclyn]

And looking at the CWGC site he sadly didn't survive the war:

Name: NOOT, BENJAMIN JOHN

Initials: B J

Nationality: United Kingdom

Rank: Private

Regiment/Service: Wiltshire Regiment

Unit Text: 1st/4th Bn.

Age: 24

Date of Death: 22/10/1918

Service No: 46588

Additional information: Son of Charles and Anne Noot, of 11, Victoria Gardens Rd Neath, Glam.

Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead

Grave/Memorial Reference: BB. 67.

Cemetery: RAMLEH WAR CEMETERY

Cheers

Dominic

Aye - the right man alright. After serving in the RAMC from 1914 to early 1918 and surviving Suvla Bay and Salonika, he decided he wanted a taste of real action before the war ended so he transferred to the Wiltshires. Died of malaria whilst guarding Turkish prisoners in Palestine. His sister was a close friend of my grandmother and I remember her showing me photos of his grave. She went out to Israel in the 1970s I think, on her own, as a 70+ widow and got the red carpet treatment and a car with driver from the British embassy who arranged to take her to see where her brother was buried. I daresay not everyone gets the same service!

Very interesting to get the details of the probable pilot of the plane. Thanks.