5th Liverpool regiment

[marlowmag]

My father Charles Ravenscroft was in the 5th Liverpool Regiment enlisted 1/7/1915 and discharged as sick on 4/1/1916 did this regiment serve abroad or were they stationed in england as they were a territoral unit i have been unable to find anything about his army service i would like to pass this information on to my grandchildren as it is important they know about the family history

[wullmackie]

Hi

And welcome to the forum, could this be your father's medal card, do you have his service number ?

Online at The National Archives

Image details

Description Medal card of Ravenscroft, Charles

Corps Regiment No Rank

Liverpool Regiment 23946 Private

Date 1914-1920

Catalogue reference WO 372/16

Dept Records created or inherited by the War Office, Armed Forces, Judge Advocate General, and related bodies

Series War Office: Service Medal and Award Rolls Index, First World War

Piece Pickering S R - Ridley C

Image contains 1 medal card of many for this collection

Number of image files: 1

Image Reference Format and Version Part Number Size (KB) Number of Pages Price (£3.50)

159718 / 26949 PDF 1.2 1 355 1 3.50

1/5th Battalion:

August 1914 : in Liverpool. Part of Liverpool Brigade, West Lancs Division.

22 February 1915 : landed at (Le) Havre.

22 February 1915 : attached to 6th Brigade, 2nd Division.

15 December 1915 : transferred to 99th Brigade, 2nd Division.

7 January 1916 : transferred to 165th Brigade, 55th Division.

Here is a link to regiment

http://www.1914-1918.net/kings.htm

All the best

wull

[Polar Bear]

Hello and welcome.

I suggest you look at the parent website - the Long Long Trail

This page might give you a start

http://www.1914-1918.net/kings.htm

After you've done that and read the various suggestions on finding individuals and you still have questions post again and Im sure you'll get a whole lot more information.

Hugh

[IanA]

I can confirm that they served abroad.

[marlowmag]

Hi everyone many thanks for your replies i think i should now look at the 99th brigade 2nd division as my father was discharged as sick on 4th jan 1916 does any one know where this division was in december 1915 january1916 many thanks

[Ken Lees]

I think you may be making too many assumptions here.

You need to base your enquiries on facts or you could end up on totally the wrong track and build a story that isn't right.

Where does this information come from: "5th Liverpool Regiment enlisted 1/7/1915 and discharged as sick on 4/1/1916"?

The 5th Liverpool Regt. had 3 separate battalions, the 1/5th which served on the Western Front from February 1915, the 2/5th which served on the Western Front from 1917 and the 3/5th which didn't serve overseas.

Do you have any other information to use as a starting point? Any medals or papers that might provide a clue?

I hope you don't think i'm being negative, but if this is to be passed down as family history you need to be sure it is right.

Ken

[Chris_Baker]

There was also a 5th (Reserve) Battalion, formed when 3/5th merged with a number of others, although it did not become so until September 1916.

[marlowmag]

I think you may be making too many assumptions here.

You need to base your enquiries on facts or you could end up on totally the wrong track and build a story that isn't right.

Where does this information come from: "5th Liverpool Regiment enlisted 1/7/1915 and discharged as sick on 4/1/1916"?

The 5th Liverpool Regt. had 3 separate battalions, the 1/5th which served on the Western Front from February 1915, the 2/5th which served on the Western Front from 1917 and the 3/5th which didn't serve overseas.

Do you have any other information to use as a starting point? Any medals or papers that might provide a clue?

I hope you don't think i'm being negative, but if this is to be passed down as family history you need to be sure it is right.

Ken

[marlowmag]

Hi Ken

I have a certificate from the national archives it states Charles Ravenscroft 5th Liverpool regiment

reg no. 23946 rank pte date of discharge 4/1/16 enlisted 1/7/15 cause of discharge para 29z. xv1 k.r. sick action taken list T.H/229 at the bottom of the certificate is W565-8 60,000 8/16 BWV(P1340) G16/1202

this is all i have to go on i have no more information my father died in January 1954

maggie

[Promenade]

Hello,

You obviously have information from the Silver War Badge roll from the National Archive as you quote enlistment and discharge dates . If you have this information it should say that your father, Charles Ravencroft, was No 23946 and served with the 5th Supernumerary Company of the Liverpool Regt. This last bit is crucial to you getting the right answer to your query as the 5th Supp Coy was a separate entity to the 5th Territorial Force (TF) Battalions.

Men who served in Supernumerary Companies were generally of an age, or medical category, where they were fit for Home Service only, ie they did not serve overseas. They were used to guard strategic points such as railways from enemy saboteurs etc. This function freed up the fitter and younger men of the TF allowing them more time to train for active service. Supernumerary Companies were later disbanded with the introduction of the Royal Defence Corps.

Promenade

[Ian Riley]

W565-8 60,000 8/16 BWV(P1340) G16/1202

I think that this is the printer's colophon giving technical information on the printing process. Probably 60000 copies being printed in August 1916 (i.e. 8/16). With the possibility that this form was not printed until August 1916, are you sure the date of discharge is January 1916? A bare six months service seems quite a short time for him to be given basic training, to be posted to a supernumary company and then for the Army to decide that he was unfit for further service given that he had to be discharged at a time when they were just about to introduce conscription.

Ian

Edited 13 December , 2007 by Ian Riley

[pbrydon]

Just a thought, the attached photo has puzzled me for some time, it shows soldiers many of whom are some age.

The sign board in front of the seated officers says 17 Company 5th Kings but apart from the lack of blackened badges and buttons, I have never thought the soldiers were anything to do with the 5th ( Territorial ) Bn. due to mainly to the age of some of the bewhiskered soldiers .Also note the railway tracks in front of the picture.

Promenade, any thoughts please

Regards

Peter

[Promenade]

Hello Peter,

I am by no means an expert on Supernumerary Coys and always defer to my good friend Graham Stewart who is an acknowleged subject matter expert. However what I do know is that there were a number of Companies in the Kings as many as 19 (I have identified men from the following Coys 3,4,5,6,7,10,11,13,14,15,17,18,19). They were formed from the National Reserve and appear to have been regional - I am aware that the 10th Coy was formed from men from Southport. So in my opinion you have a photo of the 17th Supernumerary Company

I have information on one man from 17 Coy. Unfortunately he was rejected on the day he enlisted and thus will not be on your photo (will keep my eyes out for more):-

Herbert Vaughan Smith was the husband of Lydia Smith of 227 Litherland Rd. He enlisted as No 22230 in 17 Company 5 Supy Company at 79 St Anne St Liverpool on 2/2/15 and was rejected not likely to become an efficient soldier. Previously employed by Bootle Corporation. (Soldiers Papers - Ancestry WO364)

Herbert Vaughan Smith married Lydia Spooner in Liverpool 3Q 1894

1901 Census Class: RG13; Piece: 3448; Folio: 65; Page: 34.

Herbert V Smith

Address 52 Glynne St Litherland

Occupation Sanitary Disinfector

Age: 31

Estimated Birth Year: abt 1870

Relation: Head

Spouse's Name: Lydia Smith, 26, b. Godby Brook Staffs

Gender: Male

Where born: Liverpool

Evelyn M Smith 11 months, b. Bootle

Florence S A Smith 5, b. Liverpool

Harold V Smith 2, b. Bootle

[Graham Stewart]

Joe,

Thanks for the PM and I'll try and apply some input which may help. Joe is certainly correct about Supernumary Companies formed from National Reservists and administered and affiliated to local T.F. Battalions. However I'm no expert in the Kings Regt and am surprised at the number of Companies in existence within the Kings, but local T.F.A. Minute Books, if surviving, should give you lists of units within Liverpool with their War Establishments and how many men short they are. Knowing more about the Northumberlands I have all of the N/land T.F.A. unit returns with figures.

Now what did catch my eye was his number which is a five figure one '23946'. All those men I have come across who are Supernumary's in this region are being issued with four figure Territorial numbers, which infact would be correct. Again Joe might be able to tell you if the Kings Depot were issuing numbers to your Supernumary men, rather than TF Battalions, as this is his field.

One thing that is unique about the Kings(and a few others) is the fact that they do have additional other odd units not often mentioned and these are their Infantry Labour Companies, Kings Regt and Infantry Works Companies, Kings Regt. In the case of the Infantry Labour Company's, Kings Regt you had no fewer than 27 of them numbered '1 - 27'. On top of this you also had a further 18 Infantry Works Company's again numbered '1 - 18', although by 1917 some of these disappear prior to coversion to Home Service Labour Company's, Labour Corps.

The numbers of these men were issued by the Kings Depot and therefore would be five figured and their units may be getting confused with Supernumary Company's rather than ILC's & IWC's in which they are serving.??Anyway I haven't seen any Kings service papers so couldn't say whats in them.

Just a thought.

Graham.

[pbrydon]

Joe and Graham,

Fantastic,once again the knowledge available here is incredible.

The relatively recently published history of the Kings " Difficulties be Damned" lists the kings Liverpool battalions that existed in WW1 but no mention of the Supernumary Companies.

In a booket guide to the Kings Museum published some time ago it says the Liverpools had 57 recorded battalions in WW1.

Joe I wonder how many battalions ( or perhaps individual units might be more appropriate ) have you come across in your researches ?

Regards

Peter

[JulianB]

I had a quick look through the 'local' - West Lancs Territorial Association - papers a few weeks ago. Unfortunately there is little detail for the 1st WW years. There were hardly any meetings (the chairman, Derby, was somewhat otherwise occupied) though later minutes record work done 'behind the scenes'.

Graham, I'd be interested to see references for the Kings ILCs and IWCs.

Peter - who are the two chaps in front - cooks ? Is there anything visible on the boards behind.

Julian

[Stephen Nulty]

my father died in January 1954

Aged 65 when he died, so about 26 when he enlisted.

[Graham Stewart]

The additional Infantry Labour & Works Company's, Kings Regt are;-

Infantry Labour Company's, Kings(Liverpool Regt)[b][/b]

1st Inf Lab Coy, Kings - bcame 66th Labour Coy, Labour Corps(L.C. numbers 39001 - 39600)

2nd Inf Lab Coy, Kings - became 67th Labour Coy, L.C.(L.C. numbers 39601 - 40200).

3rd Inf Lab Coy, Kings - became 68th Labour Coy, L.C.(L.C. numbers 40201 - 40800).

4th Inf Lab Coy, Kings - became 69th Labour Coy, L.C.(L.C. numbers 40801 - 41400).

5th Inf Lab Coy, Kings - became 70th Labour Coy, L.C.(L.C. numbers 41401 - 42000).

6th Inf Lab Coy, Kings - became 71st Labour Coy, L.C.(L.C. numbers 42001 - 42600).

7th Inf Lab Coy, Kings - became 72nd Labour Coy, L.C.(L.C. numbers 426001 - 43200).

8th Inf Lab Coy, Kings - became 73rd Labour Coy, L.C.(L.C. numbers 43201 - 43800).

9th Inf Lab Coy, Kings - became 74th Labour Coy, L.C.(L.C. numbers 43801 - 44400).

10th Inf Lab Coy, Kings - became 75th Labour Coy, L.C.(L.C. numbers 44001 - 45000).

11th Inf Lab Coy, Kings - became 76th Labour Coy, L.C.(L.C. numbers 45001 - 45600).

12th Inf Lab Coy, Kings - became 77th Labour Coy, L.C.(L.C. numbers 45601 - 46200).

13th Inf Lab Coy, Kings - became 78th Labour Coy, L.C.(L.C. numbers 46201 - 46800).

14th Inf Lab Coy, Kings - became 79th Labour Coy, L.C.(L.C. numbers 46801 - 47400).

15th Inf Lab Coy, Kings - became 80th Labour Coy, L.C.(L.C. numbers 47401 - 48000).

16th Inf Lab Coy, Kings - became 81st Labour Coy, L.C.(L.C. numbers 48001 - 48600).

17th Inf Lab Coy, Kings - became 82nd Labour Coy, L.C.(L.C. numbers 48601 - 49200).

18th Inf Lab Coy, Kings - became 83rd Labour Coy, L.C.(L.C. numbers 49201 - 49800).

19th Inf Lab Coy, Kings - became 84th Labour Coy, L.C.(L.C. numbers 49801 - 50400).

20th Inf Lab Coy, Kings - became 85th Labour Coy, L.C.(L.C. numbers 50401 - 51000).

21st Inf Lab Coy, Kings - became 86th Labour Coy, L.C.(L.C. numbers 51001 - 51600).

22nd Inf Lab Coy, Kings - became 87th Labour Coy, L.C.(L.C. numbers 51601 - 52200).

23rd Inf Lab Coy, Kings - became 88th Labour Coy, L.C.(L.C. numbers 52201 - 52800).

24th Inf Lab Coy, Kings - became 89th Labour Coy, L.C.(L.C. numbers 52801 - 53400).

25th Inf Lab Coy, Kings - became 90th Labour Coy, L.C.(L.C. numbers 53401 - 54000).

26th Inf Lab Coy, Kings - became 91st Labour Coy, L.C.(L.C. numbers 54001 - 54600).

27th Inf Lab Coy, Kings - became 92nd Labour Coy, L.C.(L.C. numbers 54601 - 55200).

Infantry Works Company's, Kings(Liverpool Regt)[b][/b]

1st Inf Wks Coy, Kings - absorbed into 305th(H.S.) & 306th(H.S.)Labour Coys, L.C.(L.C. numbers 170141 - 170440 & 170441 - 170740).

2nd Inf Wks Coy, Kings - absorbed into 305th(H.S.) & 306th(H.S.)Labour Coys, L.C.(L.C. numbers 170141 - 170440 & 170441 - 170740).

16th Inf Wks Coy, Kings - absorbed into 305th(H.S.) & 306th(H.S.)Labour Coys, L.C.(L.C. numbers 170141 - 170440 & 170441 - 170740).

17th Inf Wks Coy, Kings - absorbed into 305th(H.S.) & 306th(H.S.)Labour Coys, L.C.(L.C. numbers 170141 - 170440 & 170441 - 170740).

18th Inf Wks Coy, Kings - absorbed into 305th(H.S.) & 306th(H.S.)Labour Coys, L.C.(L.C. numbers 170141 - 170440 & 170441 - 170740).

3rd Inf Wks Coy, Kings - absorbed into 307th(H.S.); 308th(H.S.) & 309th(H.S.)Labour Coys, L.C.(L.C. numbers 170741 - 171040; 171041 - 171340 & 171341 - 171640).

6th Inf Wks Coy, Kings - absorbed into 307th(H.S.); 308th(H.S.) & 309th(H.S.)Labour Coys, L.C.(L.C. numbers 170741 - 171040; 171041 - 171340 & 171341 - 171640).

7th Inf Wks Coy, Kings - absorbed into 307th(H.S.); 308th(H.S.) & 309th(H.S.)Labour Coys, L.C.(L.C. numbers 170741 - 171040; 171041 - 171340 & 171341 - 171640).

9th Inf Wks Coy, Kings - absorbed into 307th(H.S.); 308th(H.S.) & 309th(H.S.)Labour Coys, L.C.(L.C. numbers 170741 - 171040; 171041 - 171340 & 171341 - 171640).

10th Inf Wks Coy, Kings - absorbed into 307th(H.S.); 308th(H.S.) & 309th(H.S.)Labour Coys, L.C.(L.C. numbers 170741 - 171040; 171041 - 171340 & 171341 - 171640).

11th Inf Wks Coy, Kings - absorbed into 307th(H.S.); 308th(H.S.) & 309th(H.S.)Labour Coys, L.C.(L.C. numbers 170741 - 171040; 171041 - 171340 & 171341 - 171640).

12th Inf Wks Coy, Kings - absorbed into 307th(H.S.); 308th(H.S.) & 309th(H.S.)Labour Coys, L.C.(L.C. numbers 170741 - 171040; 171041 - 171340 & 171341 - 171640).

4th Inf Wks Coy, Kings - no trace.

5th Inf Wks Coy, Kings - no trace.

8th Inf Wks Coy, Kings - no trace.

13th Inf Wks Coy, Kings - no trace.

14th Inf Wks Coy, Kings - no trace.

15th Inf Wks Coy, Kings - no trace.

Hope you lads find this of interest and now you know the Labour Corps numbers issued to former Kings men they should be easily traced.

Graham.

[JulianB]

brilliant, thank you, what's the reference for this

[Graham Stewart]

Appendix 106 of Army Coucil Instruction 611 of 1917 regarding the formation of the Labour Corps.

Also included was;-

23rd(Works)Bn, Kings - became 1st Labour Bn, Labour Corps(L.C. numbers 128641 - 132640).

27th(Works)Bn, Kings - became 2nd Labour Bn, Labour Corps(L.C. numbers 132641 - 134640).

Appendix 207 of A.C.I. 2414 - "New series of regimental numbers to be allotted to soldiers of Infantry T.F.";-

5th Bn, Kings - 200001 - 240000.

6th Bn, Kings - 240001 - 265000.

7th Bn, Kings - 265001 - 305000.

8th Bn, Kings - 305001 - 330000.

9th Bn, Kings - 330001 - 355000.

10th Bn, Kings - 355001 - 380000.

25th Bn, Kings - 380001 - 405000.

26th Bn, Kings - 405001 - 430000.

Graham.

[pbrydon]

Thanks Graham- incredible

Julian- Yes the two soldiers sitting either side of the board are wearing white chef type hats and white aprons.The display board at the front has the Kings badge displayed above the unit "title"

There are no boards behind ,there appear to be some roughly constructed buildings.

Interestingly 2 of the other ranks are wearing collar badges and nearly all are wearing belts with locket type clasps.

Peter

[tjec]

Hi,

I had a Great Great Uncle who in his papers was emdodied on 16 January 1915 into the; Corps National Reserve Guard, 2/5 Kings Liverpool Regiment, Serial Number 22104. The papers later mention him being in 16 Supply Company working at the Kings Docks Swansea which seems to then be attached to 3/6 Kings.

Regards,

Norman

[steve thomas]

Hi all,

I've just come into this topic and now I'm a little confused. I've picked up some papers for my Great Grandad on the Ancestry site. According to them he joined the 5th Supernumary company of 5th Kings (not entirely sure there as the company detail is abbreviated) on 10 10 1914 and the number given on the attestation form is 20535. So, given what has been said before, could the number be correct and could he definitely be part of 5th Supernumary company given that there is no subsidiary company number after that ("...17th company of 5th Supernumary company"). What is clear is that he was in the RGA before the war as part of the local Volunteer/Territorial Forces, though I don't know when he joined them. He was also transferred from the 5th Kings in 1916 and ended up in 16th Yorks & Lancs. He was eventually discharged in 1918 having picked up some kind of rheumatic complaint in Fishguard in December 1916. If anybody has any information about what he may have been up to from 10 10 1914 to 28 04 1916 when he was transferred, I'd be grateful - it may help clarify a family legend.

Thanks

[Graham Stewart]

Gents,

I've resurfaced this topic because since our last posting more information has come to light regarding National Reservists & Supernumary Company's via my Army Orders 1915. In May 1915 "Army Order 187 of May 1915", made it's appeareance and it was dedicated totally to the formation of "Supernumary Territorial Force Companies" and because of it's size it's too big for this post and too big to type out so when I get the chance I'll scan it and if a copy is required then just PM me an e.mail address.

From within the order we find that the establishment of a Supernumary Company was no more than *120 all ranks and the title of each unit was to be e.g. "No.1 Supernumary Company, 5th Bn, Kings Regt".

Now here is the best bit. Remember I questioned the use of five figure numbers when I was already aware that four figure T.F. numbers had been issued to National Reservists! Well check this out;-

(9)"Any National Reserve regimental numbers which may have been given to the men of these companies will be cancelled and a new series of Territorial Force numbers will be substituted therefor by Officers i/c T.F. Record Offices. These numbers will commence at 20001 for the men of the Supernumary T.F. Companies affiliated to a particular T.F. battalion, and will run throughout the whole of the supernumary companies affiliated to that battalion."

So basically if you know you have Supernumary Companies within the regiment you are researching then any men numbered from "20001 upwards in batches of 117 per supernumary company are former T.F. National Reservists."

Graham.

*Note - 3 of the 120 all ranks were officers.

[Ken Lees]

Thanks for that, Graham - very interesting reading.

Should we therefore assume that the appearance in TF battalions, of men with 5 digit numbers just above 20001 are men from Supernumary TF Companies who originated from the TF National Reserve or could they also be New Army enlistments?

I have six men in my files who served overseas in a Liverpool Regt. TF battalion with numbers in the appropriate range - 20277, 21123, 22276, 22413, 24231 & 25217. Of these, two of the higher numbers joined the battalion before March 1916 and the lowest number transferred in from a TF Bn. of another Regiment. They were all killed.

Ken