Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 23 January , 2004 Share Posted 23 January , 2004 On a recent thread the question of whether the NOK of soldiers who were executed were sent memorial plaques and scrolls came up. Today I took the opportunity to look at the personal records of Lt Eric Poole, Sgt Stones & Pte Willie Nelson. There were no documents in any of the files to indicate that a plaque or scroll had been issued or had been signed for by the next of kin. This does not confirm the issue either way as in the case of the ORs, the documents may have been burned and in the case of Lt Poole, thinned out. But in the case of Poole the file was substantial and therefore it was probably highly unlikely IMHO. Others may have a different view, but the above are the facts. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john w. Posted 23 January , 2004 Share Posted 23 January , 2004 Have no axe to grind on this at all. The point raised questioned if they were issued and for some reason there are no records for anyone to show that they were sent. Regarding medals there is plenty of evidence to show that they were sent, received etc, just seems strange that in this issue there is nothing John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosemary Clarke Posted 23 January , 2004 Share Posted 23 January , 2004 Regarding medals there is plenty of evidence to show that they were sent, received etc, just seems strange that in this issue there is nothing John John Could you just qualify that statement for me, please? Rosemary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john w. Posted 23 January , 2004 Share Posted 23 January , 2004 OOPPPS, long day Rosemary, I meant in general to all soldiers. Medals forfeit to SAD cases Plaques and scrolls.. who knows... Hope that clears it up.. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosemary Clarke Posted 24 January , 2004 Share Posted 24 January , 2004 OOPPPS, long day Rosemary, I meant in general to all soldiers. Medals forfeit to SAD cases Thanks for the clarification, John - I just don't want people to be misled. Agreed, a very long day, so I'm off to bed now. Rosemary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 24 January , 2004 Share Posted 24 January , 2004 This does not confirm the issue either way as in the case of the ORs, the documents may have been burned and in the case of Lt Poole, thinned out. But in the case of Poole the file was substantial and therefore it was probably highly unlikely IMHO. Others may have a different view, but the above are the facts. I agree with your findings Ian - I have noticed many of the officers files have 'plaque and scroll issued' stamped on the front cover, or one of the cover sheets. I also doubt whether the WO would have issued a plaque and scroll to an executed officer, but that's just only an opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will O'Brien Posted 24 January , 2004 Share Posted 24 January , 2004 and in the case of Lt Poole, thinned out. Ian............sorry to sound a Muppet but what exactly does this mean.........Is it the case that parts of the record have deliberately/official been removed? If this is what you mean, is it specific to SAD soldiers or something that could have happened to any soldiers records? Also what is the justification for this thinning out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 24 January , 2004 Share Posted 24 January , 2004 and in the case of Lt Poole, thinned out. Ian............sorry to sound a Muppet but what exactly does this mean.........Is it the case that parts of the record have deliberately/official been removed? If this is what you mean, is it specific to SAD soldiers or something that could have happened to any soldiers records? Also what is the justification for this thinning out? Will, I think Tom T-M is more qualified to answer this, however from my experience officers personal files can vary in content, some were weeded quite heavily and I remember trying to hunt for one officer's file only to be told by William Spencer that there was a period in the 1920s when officer files were destroyed and his was probably one of them. I have also been told that the files of RAMC officers may have been subject to the same treatment. Files to senior officer's can be very disappointing too in terms of content. Haig's records contain a lot about his funeral and not a lot else. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will O'Brien Posted 24 January , 2004 Share Posted 24 January , 2004 and in the case of Lt Poole, thinned out. Ian............sorry to sound a Muppet but what exactly does this mean.........Is it the case that parts of the record have deliberately/official been removed? If this is what you mean, is it specific to SAD soldiers or something that could have happened to any soldiers records? Also what is the justification for this thinning out? Will, I think Tom T-M is more qualified to answer this, however from my experience officers personal files can vary in content, some were weeded quite heavily and I remember trying to hunt for one officer's file only to be told by William Spencer that there was a period in the 1920s when officer files were destroyed and his was probably one of them. I have also been told that the files of RAMC officers may have been subject to the same treatment. Files to senior officer's can be very disappointing too in terms of content. Haig's records contain a lot about his funeral and not a lot else. Ian Ian............Many thanks for this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john w. Posted 25 January , 2004 Share Posted 25 January , 2004 Ian Having looked at the files and knowing the official response by the govt to pardons, time and lack of evidence. Could there be a thinning of files.... or was this done a lot earlier .. perhaps for the same reason. Purely conjecture here and probably one that we shall never know about. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pete Wood Posted 25 January , 2004 Share Posted 25 January , 2004 Hang on. While we wait for the records experts to have their say, let's stop (!!) any confusion that appears to be happening about the term 'weeding.' ALL soldiers files, ORs and Officers - of those who survived or died in the war - were weeded. The military probably never thought the public would have access to the files, so paperwork that researchers would, today, give their eye teeth for, was thrown out. It is often surprising to me just what has survived. You will often find personal correspondence from the family to the War Office on mundane matters; why it was kept I don't know. What survives, in the soldiers records, seems (to me) mainly to be information that 'might' be used by government departments in respect of future claims (pensions, allowances, medal entitlement etc) AFTER the files were weeded. In other words, there was (IMHO) NO conspiracy or deliberate cover-up that I have found (and here I refer to the records I have seen; I have not seen any records for soldiers SAD) in the military files when they were 'weeded.' That is why Haig's file is as empty as that of Privates Smith and Jones etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jock Bruce Posted 25 January , 2004 Share Posted 25 January , 2004 In other words, there was (IMHO) NO conspiracy or deliberate cover-up that I have found (and here I refer to the records I have seen; I have not seen any records for soldiers SAD) in the military files when they were 'weeded.' My, even more humble, opinion is exactly the same. Jock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 25 January , 2004 Share Posted 25 January , 2004 In other words, there was (IMHO) NO conspiracy or deliberate cover-up that I have found (and here I refer to the records I have seen; I have not seen any records for soldiers SAD) in the military files when they were 'weeded.' My, even more humble, opinion is exactly the same. Jock JB/RT, I agree with you - if there was a conspiracy the files of Willie Nelson & Sgt Stones would not be available - they could have been lost and no one would have been any the wiser - another victim of the Arnside St Fire. Just for example some of the officer files I have seen contain nothing more than 5 sheets of paper, in one case this was only one sheet! Would be interesting to get Ian's (Tintin) view on this.............. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john w. Posted 25 January , 2004 Share Posted 25 January , 2004 So it is agreed that this thinning out took place just after the war. If so that would definitely strengthen the govt position of lack of evidence as it had been done long before they were forced into the position of recognising SAD as being victims. Can see why, the point you made Teapots about the mundane letters to families, an answer would be that thats what it was, boring mundane and not politically sensitive so it stayed. Still doesnt get us any closer to the records of death plaques etc and their presentation to those died, whether SAD or not. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pete Wood Posted 25 January , 2004 Share Posted 25 January , 2004 So it is agreed that this thinning out took place just after the war. If so that would definitely strengthen the govt position of lack of evidence as it had been done long before they were forced into the position of recognising SAD as being victims. Can see why, the point you made Teapots about the mundane letters to families, an answer would be that thats what it was, boring mundane and not politically sensitive so it stayed. Still doesnt get us any closer to the records of death plaques etc and their presentation to those died, whether SAD or not. John John I am sorry, but I don't understand some of your points. So.... The 'weeding' of ALL records alledgedly took place, I seem to recall, in the 1970s. I certainly don't understand what you mean by "lack of evidence," in respect to the SAD files. It would appear to me that some of the letters that remain in place ARE politically sensitive - even if it is because, as Ian found, the letters are moving/upsetting. As both Ian and Paul have explained, on the cover of the 'British' soldiers' file in the PRO you will USUALLY find reference to the fact that a plaque and scroll have been sent out. In some cases, you will also find correspondence between the next-of-kin and the War Office. Ian B has kindly looked at three (just 3) SAD cases, on 'our' behalf. While these three files do NOT show that plaques and scrolls were issued, it is too small a sample to be 100% sure that it did not happen. But this is why I still find it amazing that, with all the controversy about SAD cases, NOT ONE person or SAD organisation appears to have made hard copies of the SAD soldiers files (and I don't mean the court martial papers). If we had access to hard copies of the soldier's files, all of us would have the conclusive answers we require. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john w. Posted 25 January , 2004 Share Posted 25 January , 2004 I have some papers for those who were given death sentences and had them commuted to 15 years penal servivtude. But Teapots yes the thought had crossed my mind that these should be obtained as the trial papers and the service records do go together. I am going to the PRO 17th Feb thats the earliest I can get there unfortunately, but rest assured I will try to get some printed up. I was going to look out for the first SAD cases and join them to the trial papers. Thomas Highgate Edward Tanner George Ward Archibald Brown I have looked for (Essex Regt) and his is not there. As for the weeding out thats my mistake as I felt that these had been done a long time ago, I misread the postings. From what I have been told various people and govt departments have seen the files. Who in reality does know what was/should be there any more? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 25 January , 2004 Share Posted 25 January , 2004 So it is agreed that this thinning out took place just after the war. If so that would definitely strengthen the govt position of lack of evidence as it had been done long before they were forced into the position of recognising SAD as being victims. Can see why, the point you made Teapots about the mundane letters to families, an answer would be that thats what it was, boring mundane and not politically sensitive so it stayed. Still doesnt get us any closer to the records of death plaques etc and their presentation to those died, whether SAD or not. John Sorry John, what I said is what I was told by William Spencer, in that there was a period in the 1920s when the service records of officers who had just been demobbed were destroyed, nothing to do with thinning. In this instance the only way to plot their army career is through the Army List by the by. With regard to officer's files, Eric Poole's is one of the more complete ones that I have read. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jock Bruce Posted 25 January , 2004 Share Posted 25 January , 2004 The reason for weeding most files is totally mundane - space! Jock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will O'Brien Posted 25 January , 2004 Share Posted 25 January , 2004 Sorry if my query to Ian re weeding/thinning out has caused this thread to be skewed off course...................this wasn't my intention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john w. Posted 26 January , 2004 Share Posted 26 January , 2004 Is ok Will.. the desire to find an answer takes time... there may be no way out on this one as I can see.. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosemary Clarke Posted 28 January , 2004 Share Posted 28 January , 2004 But this is why I still find it amazing that, with all the controversy about SAD cases, NOT ONE person or SAD organisation appears to have made hard copies of the SAD soldiers files (and I don't mean the court martial papers). If we had access to hard copies of the soldier's files, all of us would have the conclusive answers we require. RT Have you been able to establish the situation with any of the contact names I gave you? Of course, we all have access to hard copies of the surviving service records. Rosemary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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