Clearing the dead

[grantmal]

Hi all,

I am interested in discovering what happened to the bodies of those killed in Anzac Cove and on North Beach at the Gallipoli landing on April 25th.

Please feel free to jump in any time, but as far as I can ascertain......

The Naval Beachmaster arrived "on the beach approximately 2 hours after the landing of the covering force.... it was found that the first duty of the beach party was to clear the bodies away and then to load the wounded."

Unfortunately there is no mention of where the bodies were put.

Charles Bean, in Gallipoli Mission, says "...the men who were killed in or leaving the first boats, which had clustered round the foot of Ari Burnu Knoll at the northern end of the beach, were buried that evening in the scrub on the foot of the Knoll, just above the beach..."

According to www.anzacs.net cemetery database, none of the men buried at Ari Burnu cemetery were killed on April 25th.

Bean continues: "At the other end of the beach, those who died among the vast crowd of wounded brought down from Shrapnel Gully and the 400 Plateau -- a crowd that covered the sand there for perhaps 100 yards by 10 on the first afternoon -- were similarly buried on the corresponding Knoll (Queensland Point) at the South end of the beach, above Hell Spit."

According to www.anzacs.net cemetery database, only 9 of the 391 men buried in Beach Cemetery were killed on April 25th. Six of the nine are officers, none of whom (as far as I can work out) died on the beach. Lt Colonel Clarke of the 12th Battalion was killed near the Nek; Major Robertson of the 9th Battalion was killed on Baby 700; Major Oldham, Captains Hall and Green, and Lieutenant Byrne of the 10th Battalion were all killed near 400 Plateau.

Capt Annear of the 11th Battalion and Sergeant Fowles of the 9th were both killed on Plugge's Plateau within minutes of coming ashore. This area remained well and truly behind the Australian lines, yet both men are listed on the Lone Pine Memorial to those with no known grave.

The Royal Army Medical Corps training manual of 1911 makes only passing reference to the disposal of the dead after an action:

"After an action the burial of the dead and destruction of the carcasses of slaughtered animals must be performed under the best sanitary conditions possible in the circumstances, and the sanitary officer will be required to advise as to the system which should be adopted."

Is it possible that the bodies of those killed in and around Anzac Cove were removed from the beach and buried at sea?

Can anyone provide any clues?

Good on you,

Grant

[Crunchy]

Grant,

My tuppenceworth based on considerable study undertaken for an article I published in the early 1990's on the Landing at Anzac (Journal of The Australian War Memorial Issue no 22, April 1993).

IMO the casualties suffered by the initial waves in coming ashore were not as great as we have been led to believe. The opposition was not great, the Turks were firing into poor light and over a convex landscape which provided dead ground for the attackers to shelter in, and the initial Turkish defences were captured very early. Photos taken of the beach during the morning show only one casualty and are remarkably clean for a battlefield.

I think you will find that most of casualties were sustained inland later in the day and very few were sustained on the beach itself.

Cheers

Chris

[Bob Doneley]

Grant,

The 7th Battalion landed under heavy fire on the North Beach near Fisherman's Hut; many of their dead were left on the beach or in the grounded pinnaces for a day or two before it was safe to recover them.

A quick look at the AWM site shows that, of the 7th Bn men KIA 25 Apr 15, the majority are listed on the Lone Pine Memorial i.e. no known grave. The remainder are buried in the No. 2 Outpost Cemetery, which was made by Nelson Company of the Canterbury Infantry Battalion on 30 April, for the burial of some of those killed when the 7th and 12th Australian Infantry Battalions landed nearby on 25 April.

So it would seem that, on the North Beach at least, the bodies were left unburied till the 30th April or were buried and subsequently lost. There were some dead on pinnaces that were not grounded, and these were buried at sea.

Bob

[Crunchy]

Grant,

Bob is correct. My comment should only be taken for those who landed in and immediately around Anzac Cove. Sorry I wasn't specific.

The initial boatloads of the 7th Battalion landed under heavy fire near the Fisherman's Hut well north of Ari Burnu and suffered severely. So bad was it that the rest of the Battalion and the 2nd Brigade were diverted to Anzac Cove as it provided a relatively sheltered landing spot.

Cheers

Chris

[Bob Doneley]

Chris,

Good comments. Most reports of the beach at Anzac Cove mention only 1-2 bodies on the beach itself. The majority of the deaths occurred further inland, and were either buried where they fell (& were later re-buried in more formal cemeteries), or were buried during the May armstice. And of course, many were not recovered until 1919 - or at all.

Bob

[Andrew P]

It would be interesting to know what became of the bodies of the soldiers who died on the beach on the first few days while they were awaiting evacuation to the transport ships. With the medical arrangements being what they were on the first day, I'm sure there would have been a few who succumbed to their wounds on the beach. Maybe a hasty burial or as Grant says, removed from the beach and buried at sea?

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

What I can see with the LH soldiers (KIA) were there burial in different parts of Anzac.

While others (DoW or DoD) are shown as buried at sea and listed on menorials.

S.B

[grantmal]

Chris and Bob,

Thank you very much for the replies and information. I agree Chris that casualties in Anzac Cove were not as great as the myth would have us believe, but there were some casualties nevertheless. The beach party, according to the beachmaster quoted in my original post, cleared the beach of the dead and wounded before 7 a.m.-- if the dead weren't buried at Ari Burnu on the evening of the 25th (Bean's is the only reference to this I can find) were they cleared with the wounded? To go back to Annear and Fowles, where did their bodies go?

Putting aside the question of the ultimate resting place of the men killed either side of Ari Burnu (and on Plugge's), what happened to the bodies of those who died on the south end of the Cove during the day? It is hard to believe that all of the wounded brought to the beach survived to be evacuated. If they were not buried at Beach Cemetery as Bean suggests, the bodies of those who died of wounds on the beach were probably evacuated too.

There is a reference to the clearance of the 7th Battalion's dead on North Beach in the Red Cross file of Lance-Corporal Arthur Pearce, who "was killed by machine gun or rifle fire.... while making for Fisherman's Hut in a boat." A witness says "[Pearce] was buried with 30 or 40 others on the beach." The burial of these men was done, as you point out Bob, by a company of the Canterbury Battalion on April 30th. According to the web site mentioned earlier, there are 28 men of the 7th Battalion buried at No2 Outpost Cemetery.

From all accounts casualties among the covering force were heavier on North Beach than in Anzac Cove, but aside from the 28 7th Battalion men at No2 Outpost Cemetery, I can't see any other 3rd Brigade April 25th casualties buried in marked graves in the beach area.

The two (or three?) platoons of the 7th Battalion landed some 20 minutes after the 3rd Field Ambulance. The heavy fire that had the stretcher bearers pinned down on North Beach was switched to the incoming boats of the 7th Battalion, allowing the bearers to bring in their own wounded. The 3rd Field Ambulance bearers later cleared some of the 7th Battalion wounded from in front of Fisherman's Hut, carrying them down the beach to their dressing station; another 14 of the 7th's wounded were taken away by a trawler. Later in the day the Turks threatened to overrun the dressing station and the 80--100 wounded collected by the 3rd Field Ambulance were evacuated further south to Anzac Cove, some by a boat, others carried by both field ambulance and infantry stretcher bearers. Left behind, as well as the 3rd Field Ambulance packs, were "the dead men's uniforms."

Those uniforms were probably removed from men who died of wounds at the dressing station, but they could have come from the dead on North Beach, depending whether the stretcher bearers had enough time to bring in the dead as well as the wounded.

While writing this I notice more replies -- thank you gentleman. Back later.....

Good on you,

Grant

[Crunchy]

Grant,

I am sorry, I can't add any more concerning the burial of the dead on the beach.

Cheers

Chris

[grantmal]

Thanks Chris. There doesn't seem to be any definite information on this subject, either in Bean's official histories or in Butler's AMC history; I was hoping somebody had seen a diary or a letter offering some clue.

The questions asked in this thread were to satisfy my own curiosity rather than an attempt to 'find' any controversy.

Trying to understand and chronicle the role of the AMC (3rd Field Ambulance in particular) at the Landing and in the following months has thrown up a number of questions that are not easily answered by the published material I have here on the shelf. It is a very different perspective of Gallipoli, facing toward the sea on April 25th.

Under the circumstances present in Anzac Cove on April 25th it seems that the burial at sea of the men killed or died of wounds in the area would have been the obvious and most sanitary method of dealing with the bodies, and the absence in the beach cemeteries of those who died in and around Anzac Cove that day points to this sea burial as their most likely fate.

Thanks everyone for taking the time to read this thread and for the contributions.

Good on you,

Grant

[Auimfo]

By doing a quick search on the AWM site, it shows 749 Australians killed on 25/4/15. I randomly picked out a handful and found the vast majority were remembered on the Lone Pine Memorial. Interestingly, this included a soldier named D'Alton who died at sea as a result of wounds - but it included a picture of his original grave at Anzac. Therefore it would appear that not all those who died on ships were buried at sea.

I suppose someone could look through each service record of those on the Lone Pine Memorial and try to determine the soldiers location at death. Perhaps a few of the Red Cross files might also assist.

Cheers,

Tim L.

[Bob Doneley]

From a logistic point of view, taking the dead back out to the transport ships doesn't make a lot of sense. Certainly, desperately wounded men who died on the ships would have been buried at sea, as well as men killed on the boats (e.g. 7th Bn, North Beach). But with the medical evacuation system in chaos for the first week, I just can't see any beachmaster allowing dead bodies to be loaded onto a lighter to be taken out for burial - the wounded would have been evacuated first.

I think the dead were quickly covered up, or left till later. Many of them are undoubtedly buried in unknown graves, others in unmarked graves yet to be re-discovered.

Bob

[grantmal]

Tim,

There is, of course, the possibility that some of the men killed in the beach area were hastily buried and their graves subsequently lost. Frank Hudson and Alf Eccles were both killed on North Beach as C Section, 3rd Field Ambulance landed. They were buried together above the beach, close to the landing site and the Dressing Station operated by their unit on the morning of the landing. A cross was later erected, and the grave was visited and tended by their comrades throughout the campaign. The cross and (probably) all traces of the grave disappeared after the evacuation; Hudson and Eccles are both listed on the Lone Pine Memorial.

I would be interested to see Chaplain Dexter's survey maps of the Anzac cemeteries to see if Hudson & Eccle's grave was recorded by him. If it was it must be assumed that the area had been so modified post-evacuation that the Graves Rego couldn't find the grave. From his possie in the first photo here www.awm.gov.au/gmaps/cemeteries/index.asp Dexter could have seen the white cross near the shore below.

Obviously it was the circumstances that allowed for these two men to be buried where they fell. Infantry units moving rapidly inland would have had little opportunity to bury any of their men killed near the beach.

I notice that in Henry D'Alton's record it mentions that he was "Buried at sea from Seang Choon." The AWM pic shows the grave of Henry D'Alton next to the grave of Pte Walliss. Wallis was from the same battalion and was killed the same day as D'Alton's brother Charles - was there a mistake made somewhere and the grave is actually that of Charles D'Alton?

Just checked the CWGC - both Wallis and Charles D'Alton are buried in Shrapnel Valley Cemetery.

Good on you,

Grant

[grantmal]

Spent so long tapping out my reply to Tim that I missed your post Bob. I agree that logistically it would have been difficult to bury the dead from Anzac Cove/Ari Burnu at sea on April 25th - I'm presuming they would have had to have been 'proccessed' and then weighted down to prevent them from reappearing on shore. Logically, if this was the way things were done, the dead would have had to have been taken to a ship. I assume the beachmaster's priorities were to land men and material, but perhaps he thought sanitary considerations dictated the earliest possible removal of the dead from Anzac Cove.

If the dead were collected, kept on shore and later buried, it would make sense they were buried together in a mass grave. It is doubtful that a mass grave close to Anzac Cove would have disappeared during the course of the campaign. Of course, I am just speculating, as the only "evidence" I have come across was quoted in my original post.

Good on you,

Grant

[Auimfo]

Ah, now that would explain the photo. Obviously a slight error on the AWM site attributing the grave to Henry when it should have been his brother Charles.

It did strike me as odd that a body would be returned to shore for burial.

Cheers,

Tim L.

[Guest]

found the vast majority were remembered on the Lone Pine Memorial. Interestingly, this included a soldier named D'Alton who died at sea as a result of wounds - but it included a picture of his original grave at Anzac. Therefore it would appear that not all those who died on ships were buried at sea.

I suppose someone could look through each service record of those on the Lone Pine Memorial and try to determine the soldiers location at death. Perhaps a few of the Red Cross files might also assist.

Cheers,

Tim L.

dont you think this is strange that their names are commemorated on the lone pine memorial though the majority killed on the first day had a proper burial!?

william

[Crunchy]

dont you think this is strange that their names are commemorated on the lone pine memorial though the majority killed on the first day had a proper burial!?

William,

Not really. A large number of men were missing, killed out on Baby 700, Battleship Hill, Mortar Spur, Pine Ridge and some on the lower spurs of Third Ridge, all of which ended up behind the Turkish lines by the evening 25th April. Their remains were not recovered until 1919. The graves of some who were given a decent burial were lost after the evacuation when the crosses were pulled down for firewood by the Turkish garrison and were not found again. IIRC over 50% of the Australians killed at Gallipoli have no known grave.

Regards

Chris

[Crunchy]

We may be guilty of dismissing statistics and events as "MYTHS" simply they because they do not fit our appreciation of what should have happened as opposed to what actually did.

Jed,

With respect, a good deal of my research involved speaking with veterans who were at the landing (this occurred in the 1960's and 1970's) and reading a good many primary sources in the AWM including accounts written by participants. All of the veterans I spoke with indicated to me that the Turkish opposition was not strong and that they quickly captured the heights above the Cove with light casualties. Loutit of the 10th battalion was in the initial assault, and who actually got to Scrubby Knoll, told me that in advancing inland quote" I had trouble keeping up with the Turks". Other veterans said the initial fighting was very light until the Turkish counter attacks commenced later in the day.

Cheers

Chris

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

I tend to agree with Chris here and the landing losses were small when compared to those lost during the fighting in the hills.

All Turkish accounts point that there were small parties defending the beach and most retired after fighting in land where the counter attacking Regt then Regts started to pile the bodies high.

Of cause there are points where there were heavy losses on the landing (Fisherman hut area) but other wise we fot off the beach with only units being scatted by human error not Turkish fire.

Of cause many of the deaths given in the records are shown over a number of days (25 to 28 April) because of what you said Jedd.

But many of these were from the fighting in the hills not on the beach.

What the real numbers are may never be known for sure, but what is interesting here are the sourses from the Turks who claim they had no MG's in the area of the Anzac landing or only one or two?

These didn't cause the mass deaths we see on a number of british beaches.

S.B

[Andrew P]

Even though it's on the small scale I've been researching the soldiers from Fremantle who were involved in the landing and about 20 died on April 25th. So far I have only found enough evidence to say that only one of these died on the actual beach, the majority died in the fighting around Baby 700, Quins & Courtney's Post later in the day when the Turks counter attacked. Some died on hospital ships and were buried at sea while others lay where they fell. Only 2 of these men who died on April 25th have a known grave.

Regards

Andrew

[Bryn]

Jedd made an interesting observation:

'Rather than dismiss the original descriptions of the Landing as a myth, we may do better to examine why the 'official records' particularly CWGC lists do not 'support' the original descriptions and the opinions of yestertear.'

Yet the original descriptions of the Landing do NOT support the myth that many were killed on the beach in Anzac Cove. Except for elements of the 7th Battalion, already mentioned, which did not land in Anzac Cove anyway, no original reports or photos indicate heavy loss of life on the beach during the Landing. The myth that many Australians and New Zealanders died on the beach grew later, and had nothing to do with the original descriptions. The British, of course, did lose heavily on some of the landing beaches. Maybe aspects of the two stories became intertwined in the long years following the war.

[alliekiwi]

I have a family photo of the landing at Gallipoli (Anzac Cove) and there's not a body in sight. It's NZers, who landed later in the morning (Auckland Infantry). Unless any supposed bodies were cleared by then?

Allie

[grantmal]

Allie,

Your photo sounds interesting - any chance of a peek?

To quote from the opening post: The Naval Beachmaster arrived "on the beach approximately 2 hours after the landing of the covering force.... it was found that the first duty of the beach party was to clear the bodies away and then to load the wounded."

Good on you,

Grant

[Crunchy]

Grant,

What is the source of the quote please? Does it refer to the duties of the Beachmaster or what they actually did on the day? It is strange that the first duty of the Beachmaster's party was to clear the bodies and then load the wounded. I would have thought that the wounded would have been addressed first. A Beachmaster's principle task is to manage the traffic on the beach as supporting troops come ashore. I am not sure what the point was in clearing the bodies of the dead. I have never experienced any priority of collecting the dead first - they were always collected after the battle had finished. Indeed, even the wounded were left unattended, unless a medic could get to them, until the fighting had ceased and then they were the first priority, not the dead.

The other point with the photo's of Anzac Cove is the cleanliness of the beach - there is no equipment or other items whatsoever lying about on the beach that one would normally associate with heavy casualties. I am sure that a Beachmaster's party, which is quite small, could not have cleared the beach of all bodies and equipment and undertaken their principle task of managing traffic on the beach.

Cheers

Chris

[grantmal]

Hi Chris,

The quote is from the Naval Review, Vol. 9, p664; "Experiences on Anzac Beach":

"On arrival on the beach approximately 2 hours after the landing of the covering force, the Assistant Beach Master of the right section was recalled to his ship and his place taken by the left section Lieutenant Commander. The gunner of the left section was wounded and his place was not filled -- thus immediately upsetting the organisation. Boat loads of troops were swarming ashore and proceeding as quickly as possible to the trenches, but it was found that the first duty of the Beach Party was to clear the bodies away and then to load the wounded. All boats available were utilised for this purpose, picket boats, drifters and trawlers been commandeered for towing them to the transports, where incidentally there were few facilities to look after the wounded.

Guns and ammunition were of the utmost importance -- the former arrived in horse boats and were not difficult to handle -- but the latter arrived in lighters and, as the Royal engineers had only just commenced the construction of the piers, they had to be beached by the Beach Party and gangway planks fitted to enable them to be unloaded. Buoys were laid about 100 yards out from the water's edge and lighters which were not immediately required were made fast to these. The crews of these lighters were men of the RND, as naval ratings could only be spared in small numbers, it being essential to have all guns in the ships kept manned in case of necessity. etc"

In Naval Review Vol. 4, p184; "Narrative of Mine-Sweeping Trawler 448, Manned By Queen Elizabeth; Of the Landing at "Z" Beach", the commander of the former Grimsby trawler confirms that trawlers were towing boats from the shoreline as early as 5am: "I made my first trip in just before 5am, when I was sent in to pick up the empty boats and tow them out to the transports. The enemy's guns were fairly busy about this time, and a lot of shrapnel were bursting near the inshore line of transports."

That some wounded were being removed from the beach (in this case North Beach) at an early hour is confirmed in Naval Review Vol.4, p305, under " Impressions of the Landing and 14 Weeks Work on the Beach": "One of the trawlers landed part of the beach party, and laid four of the hauling-off buoys, the other was commandeered to go to the assistance of a party of wounded men on the beach on the extreme left, who seemed to be in a very exposed position. She brought off 14 of them, and we heard that the rest were safely brought into the temporary dressing station which had been set up just to the north of Ari Burnu."

Regarding the treatment of wounded on the beach, Captain Nott, RMO 10th Battalion (AWM 224/MSS136), offers the following: ".... we all jumped over the side into the water and scrambled ashore and lay flat on the sand, surrounded by similar prone forms. I don't know what time it was, but the darkness was just fading and I could see men lying around me, while others were running about trying to find their platoons or companies. After a few minutes the crowd on the beach began to thin and the firing ceased with the exception of a few snipers who were still firing from somewhere along the cliffs to the left. I looked round for my bearers and collected four of them. It was then light enough to see one's way about, and we soon discovered some wounded men lying about on the beach; I dressed these as well as I could with 1st field dressings, and collected them as well as I could in groups. By this time it was light and boat loads of men were being towed in towards shore from the destroyers...... then I began to think about catching up the Battalion..... I then realised what a mistake it was for an RMO to lose touch with his Battalion -- even to wait to dress wounded men."

If the casualties on the beach in and around Anzac Cove were not heavy - which we agree, Chris, the evidence suggests - couldn't the Beach Party have quickly evacuated them in one/some of the empty boats? Capt Nott had already collected some of the wounded in groups, making their clearance easier.

Beach party numbers were "100 men from 8 different ships" according to Naval Review Vol.4, p298.

Good on you,

Grant