Civil Executions in WW1

[truthergw]

QUOTE (Phil_B @ Nov 30 2007, 04:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do you mean a civil court? Presumably, then, it would be at the man`s unit`s discretion as to when they referred the case to a court, so he`d be AWOL till his unit decided otherwise in effect?

A man would be absent without leave if he did not report for duty at a certain time. If he returned within a few days, voluntarily , there was no question of him being a deserter. He would be dealt with on the basis of being AOL. If he was arrested by civil or military police and returned under arrest, there is now a question of whether he had intended to return or not. If charged with desertion, the court would have to show that he had no intention of returning.

[centurion]

I would imagine evidence that he had disposed of his uniform would do this.

[PhilB]

So the smart AWOL keeps his uniform in a cupboard?

[centurion]

The smart AWOL doesn't get caught!

[Gunner Bailey]

There were eleven German spies executed in the Tower of London during WW1.

These are regarded as civil deaths by the authorities.

Thanks Terry

So the list as previously stated,

1914 - 14

1915 - 9

1916 - 8

1917 - 9

1918 - 7

will have included the executed spies, further reducing the number of executions related to domestic murders.

GB

[John_Hartley]

and were they excluded from the figures you list?

GB

Yes, they were. My info came from http://www.richard.clark32.btinternet.co.uk/contents.html

John

[PhilB]

Here are the lists for 1914-1918. Certainly Rosenthal (1915) was a spy. He was the only spy to be hanged in WW1, eleven others being shot at the Tower of London. Rosenthal was hanged because of shortage of space at the Tower. This indicates that the the 11 other spies were in addition to the figures above.

O`Donnell (1917) was a Sgt RAMC who was convicted of battering to death Lt William Watterton quartermaster officer at a hospital in Aldershot. His execution was bungled and he died of asphyxiation, despite a drop of 6ft 9ins..

[IanA]

A man would be absent without leave if he did not report for duty at a certain time. If he returned within a few days, voluntarily , there was no question of him being a deserter. He would be dealt with on the basis of being AOL. If he was arrested by civil or military police and returned under arrest, there is now a question of whether he had intended to return or not. If charged with desertion, the court would have to show that he had no intention of returning.

This has been gone into elsewhere but the Manual of Military Law (1914) states that (as Tom has said) "The criterion between desertion and absence without leave is intention." (Their italics) Length of absence or distance travelled cannot be held as proof of desertion. "A man who absents himself in a deliberate or clandestine manner, with the view of shirking some important service though he may intend to return when the evasion of the service is accomplished, is liable to be convicted of desertion just as if an intention never to return had been proved against him."

It is even possible for a man on authorised leave to be convicted of desertion i.e. if he was discovered halfway through a week's leave, in civilian dress, on board a steamer bound for America.

[centurion]

Hence my comment about destroying his uniform.

History has plenty of examples of 'internal deserters', especially in siege conditions. These being men deliberately avoiding the fighting by hiding within the confines of the perimeter. perhaps the most notorious of these were the internal deserters at Dien Ben Phu (I hope my spelling is correct) in French Indo China. If caught these are usually treated as any other deserter under fire. On ships this was one of the original reasons for having marine sentries at hatchways and companion ways.

[Northern Soul]

Andy. He is not now buried within the walls of Strangeways nick, after the riot all the burial sites were dug up and any still living relatives of the deceased were contacted and asked if they wanted to arrange for the reburial of the remains or to leave it up to the Prison Service.(I have no idea how many responded as my work colleague at the time was sworn to secrecy and would not tell me).The remains were taken for cremation and reinterred in a location (I suspect it was either Southern Cemetery or Blackley Cemetery Manchester) known only to a few people, one of whom was the Chaplain of the prison at the time, he performed the reburial service. The graves in the grounds were unmarked but the location of each burial was recorded in the Works Dept who had responsibility for preparing the various burial sites, generally located in the gardens inside the perimeter wall. Each body was covered in lime to help rapid decomposition but the ground Manchester Prison (to give it its now correct title) is built on -- clay-- effectively preserved the remains as water could not get through to the lime to make it react. I think a total of about 120+ were reinterred. Ralph.(Strangeways Manchester 1965-2003 NOT as a prisoner I might add).

That's a fascinating bit of info Ralph. I recall reading a few years ago in one of the papers that some extension work (?) had been done and some of the exectuted men interred there had been exhumed but just assumed that they were reburied. The thing that caught my eye in the newspaper report was the mention of Buck Ruxton - who was one of the individuals concerned. In the early 1970's I remember being dragged on a shopping trip to Lancaster awith my parents and my mother, who went to school in Lancaster, pointed out the house in Dalton Square where Buck Ruxton had lived (and committed his crimes in). It was unoccupied and boarded up even then.

Andy.

[auchonvillerssomme]

The cremated remains rest in Blackley Cemetery plot C.2711.

Mick

not sworn to secrecy

[auchonvillerssomme]

They were exhumed and then examined by a forensic scientist for signs of illness apparent at the time of the death, and to ensure that the bodies were intact and complete as possible. Following the forensic examination the bodies were cremated at ‘Bellvue’ Crematorium, Manchester.

Mick

[ralphjd]

The cremated remains rest in Blackley Cemetery plot C.2711.

Mick

not sworn to secrecy

Hi Mick, The secrecy bit referred to was I dont know how many actually responded to my colleague Julies request as to whether the relatives wanted the remains for private burial or not.The forensic examinations took place just off the old gate house (as it is now). Andy, In 1966/67 it was proposed to build a new Admin Block and visitors centre at the corner of Southall St and Empire St (which borders the prison) and as a few bodies were buried in this corner they had to be removed and buried further away (opposite K wing ) whilst a feasability study was taken as to whether the ground would support the structure, pile driving was involved and drove us admin staff potty for weeks. Anyway the Governor asked for volunteers to exhume the remains, only one works officer came forward, so eight others were ordered to help, when they dug down the remains found were in a mummified state due to the clay as mentioned, and of all the officers involved the only one who did not go on sick leave afterwards was the one who volunteered. All of them received a Governors commendation for the work they did, I know this because I wrote them all out on their Records of Service, then came the riot and "up" they came for the second time. Ralph.

[marc glorieux]

QUOTE (Phil_B @ Dec 1 2007, 04:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Here are the lists for 1914-1918.

PhilB,

in your list , I see on 1918, april 9 , the named Louis Van der Kerkhove.

This is a belgian name and common in Flanders.

Do you have more info about this man and his actions. ?

Marc

[ralphjd]

PhilB,

in your list , I see on 1918, april 9 , the named Louis Van der Kerkhove.

This is a belgian name and common in Flanders.

Do you have more info about this man and his actions. ?

Marc

Marc, I can add a little. In April 1918 hangman John Ellis from Rochdale and his assistant George Brown hung LOUIS VAN DER KERK-HOVE at Birmingham (Winson Green) Prison who had stabbed to death his lady-friend, CLEMENTINE VERELIST, in an hotel room. Ralph

[auchonvillerssomme]

Aplogies rjaydee I was being flippant, , I was also informed yesterday that there is an ongoing issue still with the remains.

As a very slight aside to this, not many people including prison staff realise the input that Works Officers had into execution by hanging. These men usually undertook the running repairs to the prison but were also responsible for the scaffold, ropes and fixing the drop with the hangman and were in attendance. At least one works officer was also used as a restraining warder.

Mick

[ralphjd]

Mick, Wasnt aware of any issue re the remains, I shall enquire of my brother-in-law who is employed on the works dept to see if he knows anything, also my wife who works in the control room, but they are so locked away they never get to hear anything other than security items. Ralph.

[auchonvillerssomme]

He provided a link to a website but i can't open it. will delve deeper. I finished my time as HCSO (not at Strangeways).

http://www.nga.ie/manchester_martyrs1.htm

Mick

[auchonvillerssomme]

managed to open it, to do with the reaising of a memorial.

Mick

[ralphjd]

Well I am stunned!! thanks for the info Mick interesting if nothing else. Ralph.

[corisande]

I have been trying to track the "death" of a John Goey or McGoey

see this thread

He was sent by Casement to Ireland in March 1916 with a message to stop the Easter Rising. And disappeared off the face of the earth

Two members of the Irish Brigade believe he was shot in Peterhead Prison. One of these, Keogh, describes him as McGoey, a volunteer from New York. Courier between Clan na Gael in US and Germany. Taken off Swedish ship by thhe British in Kirkwall and shot the day before Good Friday 1916 at Peterhead Prison Scotland. Born Donegal.

There appears to be no record of his death by execution. I believe he was taken f that boat, but may have been British double agent.

Anyone add any thoughts as to whether an execution like this could have taken place without appearing in the records.

[Gunner Bailey]

I've just come back to this thread for a quick look and reading through I think it shows the forum at its best. Enquiring, discussing, polite, informative. Well done all!

John

[SiegeGunner]

Did he ever manage to deliver his message, Corisande? If not, and if he was indeed a British agent who was spirited away under the guise of being arrested and executed, would that not imply that the British did not want the Easter Rising to be stopped? If so, is that something new or has there always been a belief (proven or not) that the British wanted an open confrontation sooner rather than later?

I have to say, in passing, as someone who does not have a personal stake in Irish history, that in years gone by it always seemed 'too difficult' to approach out of purely historical interest, but more recently, viewing the subject through the prism of the Great War, and assisted by Irish pals who approach this period of history in the same spirit of enquiry with which we examine Great War issues, I have learned a great deal and look forward to learning more.

Mick

[corisande]

Did he ever manage to deliver his message,

Short answer appears to have been "no", in as much as he appears to have disappeared before reaching Ireland.

It is a moot point historically on when and why the British knew that the German arms shipment would come into Kerry. The Aud was captured full of German arms, the British knew she was coming. Casement was picked up hours after landing from the German submarine.

The argument as to which bits of British Intelligence knew and did not tell other bits is somewhat complex. But the bottom line is that they knew.

Goey could have told them - either under torture, or because he was a British agent - I have no idea, nor apparently does anyone else. He could have been a key figure in the Easter Rising scenario, or he could have been a nobody.

I am trying to establish some facts about him, difficult that it is.