Estaminets in France/Flanders

[burlington]

I was always led to believe that in 1914-18 cafes served drink whereas estaminets served drink, food, plus 'je ne sais quoi' ( ie. dancing girls )

Am I correct?

[paul guthrie]

I always read of food and drink but not dancing girls, just the daughters of the family serving the eggs & chips and vin blanc & watery beer.

[burlington]

I was trying, perhaps, to be a bit too polite!

[paul guthrie]

Oh Oui, Oui! Seriously I do not know that many were really whorehouses, good question but I think they were different category.

[Paul Reed]

I think the distinction between a cafe and estaminet at the time was indeed the food factor - everything else was a bonus, no doubt...

[Desmond7]

Paul - do you know fo any estaminets which last to this day? Are there actual pub buildings where Tommy had a wee drink?

[Paul Reed]

Yes, there are a few in the villages west of Albert towards Amiens... but they are all cafes now, and not estaminets. Many of them have survived but have become private houses - on both sides of the front. I have a friend who lives near Cambrai, in a house that was a bar during WW1 which is mentioned by Ernst Junger in Storm of Steel; I have sat there drinking many times and though of old Ernst and all the Hannovarians...

[Desmond7]

And that (never mind the terror, fighting, discipline) is what I suppose most of them wanted to remember... a day out of the weather, a wee drink and back to a roof over the head. After X days standing in proverbial that must have been brilliant?

[Graham-McAdam]

There is one still on the Bapaume road, appropriately, on the right just as it enters Cambrai. I'm always on my way to a comfy room so have never stopped, but it looks right, though perhaps, as Paul says, its more of a caff than what it used to be. Note to self - have a drink next time.

[Frank_East]

While in the village of Damme adjacent to Bruges I saw the faint wording "Estaminet"on the side of an old brick building.Presumably the building was there during the Great War and served as such.No doubt the estaminet would have had German patrons throughout the war. They must have enjoyed the escape to relaxation and booze as much as our lads.

Reading the history of the NZ Brigade there was a reference to the New Zealanders marching up the dusty Bapume Road from Amiens in the heat of late summer 1916 to take up their positions at the front.It related that on the way the New Zealanders were continally trying sneak into the estaminets on the way up to quench their thirst and fraternise with the local womenfolk.

I took my NZ cousin along this road last October,her father and uncle were amongst those who made this march,her uncle losing his life and declared missing in action on 5 October 1916. He is remembered in Caterpillar Valley Military Cemetery

Regards

Frank East

[iain mchenry]

Just down the road from Lissenthoek Cemetary, on the way back to Poperinge, is an Estaminet that has the date 1911 on its brickwork, I can only imagine that this was well used by staff of the Field hospital that the cemetary is now on.

[Nicolas G.]

Hello Pals,

As far as I know in the past & still todays, "estaminet" & "café" are the same. But the word "estaminet is in use north of France (Nord-Pas-de-Calais) and in Belgium, in Picardie there is only "cafés".

Nicolas

[Aurel Sercu]

As far as I know in the past & still todays, "estaminet" & "café" are the same. But the word "estaminet is in use north of France (Nord-Pas-de-Calais) and in Belgium, in Picardie there is only "cafés".

Thanks, Nicolas !

For I tend to agree : "estaminet" and "café" are synonyms, maybe with a geographical distinction.

As soon as the thread was started, I wanted to join, but then I saw that there seemed to be a consensus that the distinction between café and estaminet was :

"café" = drinks ; "estaminet" = food and drinks

That was not my view, but then I could not corroborate it. Also : my view is based on what I have always known in my language and dialect, and that is : from approx. late 40s. It may (may !) be possible that there were times (WW1 or before it ?) that an "estaminet" (in our Flemish dialect : "staminee") was for food + drink, but I'm not sure.

The difference the way I feel it (if there is a difference, for our modern dictionaries say : "estaminet" = local dialect word for "café") is :

- estaminet = in the country

- café = in town.

And also that "estaminet" nowadays sounds oldfashioned. (I myself would never use it anymore).

Let me also point out that there is another common word, Flemish, not French origin, for such a place : "herberg". And I think the French borrowed it from us in "auberge". A "herberg" (English "inn") must have been a place offering food + drinks + accommodation (the verb "herbergen" means "to accommodate). But that must have been a long long time ago. For I spent the first years of my life growing up in a "herberg" (late 40s), and I don't recall any food or accommodation being offered by my mother. Only beer. (Not for me though. At the time.)

Aurel

[Bert Heyvaert]

I'll have to agree with Aurel. When my grandfather said that he was going nau 't staminee, he meant to the café, nothing else. Just drinks there.

There are a few 'estaminets' in my village however, and it is interesting to see how the meaning of the word changed. One is a typical immediate post WW2 café, still serving the local lager and mainly visited by older men who play with pigeons (if you do not know what pigeon-sport is, next time you visit Flanders, watch out for elder people on an old-bicycle, with a pigeon-cave on the carrier, wobbling from one side of the street to the other). Their café is called Estaminet 'den blauwe geschelpte' (serious, I'm not joking!) and is an ordinary café. No food, just drinks.

The other two 'estaminets' opened just a few years ago and serve both food and drinks, and are considered a bit more 'chique'.

regards,

Bert.

[mcderms]

For the avoidance of doubt, estaminets were not brothels, just places where the ORs could get local beer, wine and egg n' chips. Quite often, the farmer whose outbuildings were requisitioned by the army would open an estaminet as a way of making a few francs.

Quite a few estaminet owners are potrayed as unscrupulous and profiteering, especially post 1916 when the better paid colonial troops arrived in France.

The Germans included beer in the rations and I have just read an interesting tale of a Saxon regt cut off by the pre-Somme barrage who risked life and limb to collect a barrel of beer over other rations and ammo!

I believe that there were brothels in the larger towns... Okay, there were brothels in all the towns as the French have always been more laid back about commercial transactions with ladies of negotiable affection than we have. These mostly catered for the better heeled officer - the ORs in need of some TLC had to make do with abstinence or what my grandad delightlfully called a Knee Trembler in some dark corner. The Germans had very organised and official brothels that were segregated by rank.

For those that are interested, there are a number of great stories around booze and the Brits in 'First Day On The Somme' (the King brothers meet up for a last drink) and various opus from Lyn MacDonald.

[1/1Hertfordshire]

Now 13 years since the last reply, I would like to add an update. From the 34th London Regiment War Diary dated 25 December 1918 at BERSEE and of course Bersee is in Nord-Pas-de-Calais region which matches Nicolas thoughts of it being a region word for cafe.

Parade service at 1000 hours. Each Coy sat down to Xmas Dinner in its own dining hall. The Commanding Officer visited all Coys whilst at dinner. A football match between Headquarters Officers and Sergeant, which was attended by nearly the whole Battalion resulted for a win by the Officers by 1 goal to nil. All estaminets were kept open until 2100 hours.

[Creafield]

On ‎1‎/‎26‎/‎2004 at 03:56, iain mchenry said:

Just down the road from Lissenthoek Cemetary, on the way back to Poperinge, is an Estaminet that has the date 1911 on its brickwork, I can only imagine that this was well used by staff of the Field hospital that the cemetary is now on.

 

15,000kms away and 13 years later  you jogged my memory Iain.  A Google Earth search revealed this - was this the one??.   Certainly seems to be 'newer'

Edited 5 February , 2017 by Creafield
spelling

[andrew pugh]

Hi All

There used to be at least or two in Mailly Maillett, because of the large amount of troops who used to billeted there. I know one of them was run by the mother of Madam Paulette Pecourt who lives in the last house on the left as you go out of Mailly towards Serre. She has a wonderful collection of cap badges and shoulder titles given to her by the soldiers at that time.

Regards Andy 

[sdparker]

 

RNAS Flt Ltnt Guy Leather used to visit an Estaminet called Discovan near Furnes Belgium. Apparently he named

an aeroplane after it! Does anyone know where it was , and does it still exist?

Regards Geoff

[RegHannay]

Estaminet or esteminet ??

[FROGSMILE]

I have a theory based on reading over the years that the 'eating' part of using an estaminet or cafe (it seems to me likely that as suggested previously, rural-urban is probably the origin of the divide in these terms), was really something developed from a simple supply and demand equation during WW1.

 

Outside of big cities like Paris, et al, there does not seem to have been a great tradition of eating away from home, which was a preserve of the middle and monied classes.  Rural society was generally low income, and its women prided themselves on produciing good, tasty and wholesome food for their menfolk (and families) at home.  Going out to an estaminet/cafe was for local people, a recourse to strong black coffee, a pastis, smoking a pipe and partaking in a yarn.

 

Then arrives the largest Army (over the duration of the war) that Britain ever placed in the field and, not slow to recognise an opportunity when they saw one, the ladies (primarily but not exclusively) were soon providing egg and chips, cheaply, along with vin blanc (plonk), as well as ham, bacon, and chicken for those with deeper pockets, especially the officers.

 

This then passed into folk memory because the accounts of British soldiers from that time all associated estaminets as places where they could get a drink, a chance to socialise with their pals and enjoy a cheap, hot, home-cooked meal and (occasionally) a bit of banter with the lady providing it, as relief from the bully beef, Maconochies stew, and Ticklers jam, of the trenches.

Edited 17 March , 2020 by FROGSMILE