Use of 'drab' kilts

[truthergw]

A sort of nearly on topic question. Did the Irish Regiments have pipes and drums at the time and did they wear saffron coloured kilts? If they did, I reckon it might be hard to distinguish from Hodden Grey in a photograph.

[rgalley]

Here is a quote from the M.o.D.'s / Army's web pages relating to the Black Watch -

"The tartan is Black Watch - except for the pipers who wear Royal Stewart - although khaki kilts and aprons have been worn"

The following link takes you to the site:

The Black Watch, 3rd Battalion, Royal Regiment of Scotland

[tocemma]

Hello all,

One for Joe Sweeney- Drab Kilt with pocket in use. 10th Black Watch again?? No name or location on back of PC sadly.

I have other photos of the drab kilt in use will dig them out shortly.

Tocemma

 

Edited 7 November , 2016 by tocemma

[ian turner]

To dispell any idea that kilts were withdrawn during winter and replaced by trousers...

At least in my Grandfather's regiment/battalion he wore the kilt throughout the war and in all seasons, gas or no gas!

He remembered the sodden material (after wading a river) freezing in winter and cutting the knees.

Lice were cleaned out of the pleats with a lighted candle.

And they did not wear anything underneath either...

Ian

[Ian Riley]

Tom,

The Liverpool Scottish, I'm sure, wore kilts of Forbes tartan. The Elcho Grey/Hodden was worn by the London Scots don't know about Canadian Regiments.

Aye

Tom McC

I think the Toronto Scottish wore the same Hodden Grey as the London Scottish. The Liverpool Scottish certainly wore Forbes.

Ian

Edit - Oops! ... but the Toronto Scottish by that name were not formed until 1921.

Edited 5 December , 2007 by Ian Riley

[deejayess]

I used to work for a military kiltmaker and the saffron and hodden gray colours are very different and would be unlikely to be confused. These days a kilt for the MOD will be churned out in about 8 man hours but I suspect regimental tailors churned them out faster in the Great War.

I am told by my father that my grandfather would wrap sandbags (minus the sand) around his thighs to give some extra protection from the cold, barbed wire etc. I also have a photo of him in his kilt and uniform but despite him being in the Camerons it's not a Cameron kilt. Was it common to wear the wrong tartan?

[Ian Riley]

To dispell any idea that kilts were withdrawn during winter and replaced by trousers...

At least in my Grandfather's regiment/battalion he wore the kilt throughout the war and in all seasons, gas or no gas!

And they did not wear anything underneath either...

Ian

.. the men of the Liverpool Scottish must have been made of lesser stuff. OC X Company records that, on his way up to Hill 60 in the frozen early Spring of 1915, that the men were to take 'drawers'; this obviously marks a departure from normality but I don't think he had furniture in mind.

Ian Riley

[tocemma]

Hello all,

It is clear from clothing regs that both woollen and cotton drawers were issued to Highland Regiments. Whether they wore them or not is another question!

That some did is beyond question. In the IWM photo library there is a sequence of photographs showing a Highland Battalion on the Somme. I believe it shows a number men cleaning Lewis guns. Most are without kilts but all are wearing the woollen drawers back to front ie the fly opening at the back.

These drawers both WW1 and WW2 patterns, which are almost identical, are very poor at retaining the old 'toggle and two' which had an alarming habit of dangling in the breeze! Some soldiers sewed extra buttons to the fly or in some cases sewed up the fly completely.

Another minor misery of war!

RE the service dress trousers/kilt issue see my photo posting of the Seaforths- both used side by side with no apparent problem.

Regards

Tocemma

[PhilB]

These are Seaforth officers. Is the "sporran bag" official or ad hoc?

[Tom A McCluskey]

Phil,

You regularly see pictures of the Highland Division with their PH mask & bag worn as a sporran. I need to have a look, but I am sure I have it laid down that it would be worn as a sporran in certain orders of dress.

Aye

Tom McC

[pbrydon]

Going off at a slight tangent in "The Canadian Army at War " by Mike Chappel ( Osprey Men at Arms series ) Plate C1 says" shortages of regulation clothing in the early months of the war led to the adoption of a "khaki" tartan by certain units of the Royal Highlanders of Canada" and the illustration shows a light drab tartan with dark stripes.This was made up into both kilts and glengarrys.

I am not aware that the Liverpool Scottish wore other than Forbes tartan kilts but did wear the kilt covers over the kilt. In the book " Bravest of Hearts " by Hal Giblin, there a nunber of illustrations of members of the Liverpool Scottish wearing the gas mask/bag like a sporran

P.B.

[Joe Sweeney]

Hello all,

One for Joe Sweeney- Drab Kilt with pocket in use. 10th Black Watch again?? No name or location on back of PC sadly.

I have other photos of the drab kilt in use will dig them out shortly.

Tocemma

Tocemma,

Thats 100% a kilt, no confusion in that. This explains the two Drab Kilt patterns. Thanks again.

Joe

[Joe Sweeney]

I used to work for a military kiltmaker and the saffron and hodden gray colours are very different and would be unlikely to be confused. These days a kilt for the MOD will be churned out in about 8 man hours but I suspect regimental tailors churned them out faster in the Great War.

I am told by my father that my grandfather would wrap sandbags (minus the sand) around his thighs to give some extra protection from the cold, barbed wire etc. I also have a photo of him in his kilt and uniform but despite him being in the Camerons it's not a Cameron kilt. Was it common to wear the wrong tartan?

Do you have a photo?

Actually I believe that there maybe an old thread were someone posted war diary info that a recieving battalion noted that replacements coming from an IBD had a mix of kilt tartans and that they continued to be worn for quite a long time.

Joe Sweeney

[rgalley]

To dispell any idea that kilts were withdrawn during winter and replaced by trousers...

Out of interest, this is taken from Brewsher's history of the 51st Highland Division and refers to the period c.Dec 1916:

"Meanwhile the "Q" staff had been making every effort to alleviate the sufferings of the men. A gum-boot store had been established at Pozieres, with sufficient boots for the whole brigade in the line. There was, however, a continual wastage of these boots as, though they reached almost up to the hip, many of them were sucked off the men's legs in extricating themselves from the mud. It was found that these thigh boots and the kilt did not make a good combination. The boots had to be worn underneath the kilt, with the result that the top edge of the boot, rubbing against the bare thigh, used to chafe the men and cause septic sores. In consequence, the kilt was for the time being abandoned and six thousand pairs of trousers were issued to the men."

[PhilB]

Cpl Collins (Seaforths) from Fort George July 1915.

I got another new kilt. You see I am a pal of the quartermaster and he got some fine kilts in with box pleats instead of the ordinary pleats, so I swapped my old one. It`s much warmer and has about 7 yards of cloth in it.

Sounds like there were good and not so good kilts!(Not that I know the difference!)

[Joe Sweeney]

QUOTE (Phil_B @ Dec 8 2007, 05:06 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cpl Collins (Seaforths) from Fort George July 1915.

I got another new kilt. You see I am a pal of the quartermaster and he got some fine kilts in with box pleats instead of the ordinary pleats, so I swapped my old one. It`s much warmer and has about 7 yards of cloth in it.

Sounds like there were good and not so good kilts!(Not that I know the difference!)

I wonder what he originally had??

Seaforths were supposed to have Box Pleats.

There must of been lots of non standard kilts passed by inspectors early in the war.

Joe Sweeney

[PhilB]

Something else I didn`t know:-

Cpl Collins again:-

We have had our bonny red & white stockings taken away and been given khaki ones. In the trenches we pull them up above the knee at night . They are very long. The tartan kilt is hidden by a khaki apron and the cap by a khaki cover.

And here`s the cheapest he could find for officer`s gear on being commissioned.

[Steven Broomfield]

Mo asked about the kilt being phased out in WW2: in his book, British Army Uniforms and Insignia of World War Two, brian L Davis comments that instructions were sent to the BEF on 25th september, 1939, suspending use of the kilt, on the grounds that: 1, impossibility of maintaining a sufficient supply, and, 2, agreement that the kilt was unsuitable for modern warfare.

1. The cost of a kilt was (in 1940 figures) approximately £4, compared to 11s 4d for a pair of BD trousers; in addition, the kilt used 4lb 6 1/2oz of wool, again compared to BD trousers' 1lb 4oz.

2. Three-fold: kilt considered to have very poor protection against gas; unsuitability for trench warfare and (particularly) mechanised warfare; kilt far the worst form of dress for harbouring vermin.

Also, as someone commented, the Toronto Scottish wore (and still wear) Hodden Grey in respect of their association with the London Scottish, but I suspect this is a post-GW thing.

And here's a piece of Hodden:

[PhilB]

Can anyone explain this:-

"When I was in France, and it was wet, I found that it was better to take the kilt off and put it around the shoulders before going into the line. Then, when you got up into the front line you wiped or scooped off all the mud and sweat from your thighs and put your kilt on, tightened it up and you were nice and snug and warm. Trousers and puttees became and stayed wet, it was impossible to get them dry and trousers were very thin compared to the kilt, there was no comparison."

2/Lt N Collins Seaforths

Does he really mean they were bare from the waist down (apart from underwear) on their way up the line?

[ian turner]

QUOTE (Phil_B @ Dec 9 2007, 03:28 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Does he really mean they were bare from the waist down (apart from underwear) on their way up the line?

Phil,

I think I read on here somewhere about a whole unit going into the line/along the trenches without their kilts on in this manner. The observer was amused to see the Jocks passing by, with much on show!

Ian

[rgalley]

Phil,

I think I read on here somewhere about a whole unit going into the line/along the trenches without their kilts on in this manner. The observer was amused to see the Jocks passing by, with much on show!

Ian

From Haldane's, 'History of the 4th Battalion Seaforth Highlanders':

"During bad weather letters home were always full of praise of the kilt, and, curiously, this came from the London men. Its great advantage was that it was easily kept dry on going into the trenches, for it could readily be worn round the neck until the firing step was reached. Even when it got wet the water quickly ran down to the lower edge and dripped off, while the constant swing when in motion helped to dry it. Pity for those who had to spend time in sodden trousers is often expressed. When, towards the end of the stay in the Neuve Chapelle area, waders were issued, the men adopted the following procedure. A sandbag was cut open along its side, holes were made at the corners of the opposite side, through which the lgs were thrust and the whole drawn up, thereby gathering the kilt into a bunch. Another bag was drawn over each leg, which was then thrust into the wader. The appearance is likened to an Elizabethan fashion plate!"

The "London men" referred to in this snippet were mainly of Scottish parentage or extraction for whom there were no vacancies in the London Scottish. After its arrival in Bedford in August 1914, the Battalion was brought up to full strength by a sizeable intake of these recruits from London.

[PhilB]

A sandbag was cut open along its side, holes were made at the corners of the opposite side, through which the lgs were thrust and the whole drawn up, thereby gathering the kilt into a bunch. Another bag was drawn over each leg, which was then thrust into the wader. The appearance is likened to an Elizabethan fashion plate!"

Here`s a challenge! Can anyone show a photo of these "unusual" methods of wearing the kilt?

[BigT]

The wearing of kilts in the front line, became unpopular when they got wet froze, or became thick with mud and cut the back of the legs.