Jack Sheldon Posted 20 November , 2007 Share Posted 20 November , 2007 Following the success of the Bourlon identifications, here is slightly more challenging one. From the context it ought to be a Cambrai casualty, but the caption merely reads 'British tank'. Does the Ace of Spades ring a bell with anyone? Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 20 November , 2007 Share Posted 20 November , 2007 12th (Eastern) Divisional symbol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 20 November , 2007 Author Share Posted 20 November , 2007 Chris Thanks for that. Raking around here is another shot of what must be the same casualty and this time we have a number. Any advance on 12th Division? Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
centurion Posted 20 November , 2007 Share Posted 20 November , 2007 I've had a copy of that some time and always had two questions unanswered. 1. What happened to the first digit of the WD number? Was it usual to only show the last 3 digits? 2. There is something very odd about the damage to the rear horn. Its curved not jagged and appears to have happened to both horns (you can see daylight between the remains of the tracuk and the end of the horn suggesting that the whole rear of the tank has been shortened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Banning Posted 20 November , 2007 Share Posted 20 November , 2007 Hi Jack, According to Philippe Gorczynski's book on page 90 the picture shows Tank C51 'Chaperon' upended at the south of Laleau Wood. Interestingly the picture in the book shows the tank in the snow so whilst it is not the same picture - it IS the same tank! All best, Jeremy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidearm Posted 20 November , 2007 Share Posted 20 November , 2007 This tank is 2732 C51 "Chaperon II" of either 11 or 7 section 9 Coy C Battalion Tank Corps commanded by 2/Lt Annett. It is/was a Mark IV Female manufactured by the Metropolitan Carriage Wagon and Finance Company, and was one of a small batch fitted with potentially faulty differential locking shafts. It was delivered from Metropolitan to the War Office on 11 May 1917. There are a number of photos of C Battalion tanks at Cambrai with the Spade insignia. See also Conqueror II knocked out in Fontaine Notre Dame, as just one example. Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidearm Posted 20 November , 2007 Share Posted 20 November , 2007 I should have added that 2732 is a very well photographed tank. I have no less than 14 different photos in my catalogued collection and maybe more in my uncatalogued. The tank also has a painted figure on the side of the hull, which isn't very apparent in the photos posted. A similar type of painting appears on "Conqueror II" and also on 2021 C23. Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hansen Posted 20 November , 2007 Share Posted 20 November , 2007 I've had a copy of that some time and always had two questions unanswered. 1. What happened to the first digit of the WD number? Was it usual to only show the last 3 digits? 2. There is something very odd about the damage to the rear horn. Its curved not jagged and appears to have happened to both horns (you can see daylight between the remains of the tracuk and the end of the horn suggesting that the whole rear of the tank has been shortened. 1. The first number is still there but very faint. 2. The starboard rear horn has been bent toward the camera. The port horn has not been affected. The daylight is visible between the unditching rail and the rear horn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 21 November , 2007 Author Share Posted 21 November , 2007 Thank you all for these very interesting and informative replies. Clearly I shall be drawing on your information when I come to caption the photographs I choose to use so, if I come across any more potentially identifiable material, I shall post again and appeal for help. I do not want to be responsible for publishing incorrect information. I have one more point relating to 2732. According to one German source, it was knocked out climbing out of the Cambrai-Peronne road (modern D 930/N30). Presumably this is why it was photographed so frequently. Does this tie in with the link to Laleau Wood? and, if so, where exactly was that wood? Presumably the extreme possible limits are the canal in the west and Fontaine in the east? Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delta Posted 21 November , 2007 Share Posted 21 November , 2007 Jack Lateau wood shown on this outline map I have a better map at home - will post it this evening Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 21 November , 2007 Author Share Posted 21 November , 2007 Stephen Thanks for that. I have now sorted it out. I must have been asleep this morning. Of course the road in question is the N44/D917 and I can now clearly see where the wood was. Here is yet another view of it. I wonder if anyone can pinpoint exactly where it was knocked out on the basis of this? Are the farm buildings a clue? If it was indeed near Laleau Wood, which we cannot see on this photo, would anybody else agree with me that it was probably travelling west to east when hit and that, therefore, the wood is off the photo to the right? Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delta Posted 21 November , 2007 Share Posted 21 November , 2007 I think it was close by a road junction; the location was given in "Cambrai - the right hook" - will check it at home if some-one doesn't pin point it first Stephen PS: C Bn's assault was from the south west, not the west - map to follow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidearm Posted 21 November , 2007 Share Posted 21 November , 2007 I thought that I had once come across another discussion on this forum of this tank, and that someone had posted a modern day photo of the location, but I can't find it immediately. Not by searching all forums for "Chaperon" anyway. Maybe I was dreaming... Also, although my database gives the name of the commander as 2/Lt Annett, I can't trace him as a casualty on CWGC. I find it incredible he might have survived an artillery hit like that seen - unless the tank had already been stopped and the crew baled out before the hit on the starboard horn. Anyone know any more of him? Finally, the damage to the armour over the rear sprocket is curious, but it reminds me very much of damage seen on D51 Deborah - Phillipe Gorzcynski's tank. I understand that on D51 the damage is accredited to the tank having been dragged. Could the same thing have happened here, perhaps to reopen the road? The implication is that the tank is not photographed at quite the same spot it was stopped in the fighting. Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delta Posted 21 November , 2007 Share Posted 21 November , 2007 Jack I have checked the Right Hook and no joy; this means it must in "Following the Tanks" which is on loan Grateful if a Pal could check it for me I think the picture was taken within the red cirlce on this photo but I could be wrong Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delta Posted 21 November , 2007 Share Posted 21 November , 2007 On the other hand , you may find this this post of help http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/l...php/t59368.html and buy Ian's book:( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delta Posted 21 November , 2007 Share Posted 21 November , 2007 Or perhaps - you could just ask isanders for a copy of his book (after all he is a Pal) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mebu Posted 22 November , 2007 Share Posted 22 November , 2007 Sorry I can't scan originals at present, but the tank and location photo appeared in "The Hindenburg Line" 10 years ago. The D96 leaves the N44 on the south west corner of Lateau Wood and skirts the southern edge of the wood. The track behind the wood runs north from the D96, on the northeast angle of the junction is the embankment on which the tank was photographed by many. Hope this helps, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael850Sp Posted 28 January , 2008 Share Posted 28 January , 2008 I'm looking for photos or information to lead me to identify the tank my Grandfather was in (Gunner JS Cleaver, H Battalion) at Cambrai. He was in either the 22nd or 24th Company. I believe the 24th. His diary tells me he was in the same tank as Gunner C E Lock who won a Military medal on Nov 23rd at Fontaine (This info found in Gorczynski's Following the tanks book).On that day they returned in the tank to Ribécourt at 2am.He says their target that day was Bourlon Wood and Fontaine. My best guess is that he was in either Hiawatha or Henry VIII. A photo of either of these would be very welcome. Another clue..His tank had the track knocked off on 1st Dec 1917 during the German counterattack and had to be abandonned...they got into the line with their Lewis Gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sidearm Posted 29 January , 2008 Share Posted 29 January , 2008 Hi - welcome to the Forum. You might find it productive to post your query as a new thread - I missed your post when I was on the Forum last night. As it is, I don't have a photo of either the tanks you mention. It is also very difficult to associate ORs with individual tanks. All the same, there are some quite brilliant people on this Forum who may well be able to help you. Gwyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Saunders Posted 30 January , 2008 Share Posted 30 January , 2008 Jack - from memory 12 Div had 72 tanks to support their 20 Nov advance towards the Brown Line (basically just beyond line Le Quennet Farm, Lateau Wood, Bleak Quarry). Again from memory, I think about 1/3 to 1/2 of these may have dropped out due to mechanical failure prior to reaching first objectives - Sonnet Farm/Bleak House. The remaining tanks did much good use to assist with the resistance put up by the Germans at Le Quennet Farm, Pam Pam Farm and Bonavis Farm - all strong points, although some tanks by this time had been knocked out by German shelling. The tanks were less useful in overcoming the resistance in Lateau Wood. Regards, Jonathan S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Sheldon Posted 30 January , 2008 Author Share Posted 30 January , 2008 Jonathan Many thanks for that. I am garnering snippets of information from many sources. As I get further into my research and writing up, I am becoming ever more aware that this is a battle about which a lot of people know a great deal. It is going to be a challenge to bring forward new information, but I am quite confident that that will be the case before I am finished, particularly with regard to Flesquieres and the tensions in the German chain of command which affected the preparation and conduct of the German counter-attack. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebrys Posted 1 July , 2008 Share Posted 1 July , 2008 Thanks to Delta I'm joining in this post - rather late I know but you might find it interesting! A film of this tank is found in the Steven Spielberg archive of Fokker's personal archive in which the famous aeroplane manufacturer climbs all over and into it. It's a fascinating film. Thanks for everyone's input here. Regards, Trebrys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isanders Posted 25 August , 2008 Share Posted 25 August , 2008 You can view the Fokker film online. Fokker Film with C51 at Bonavis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDHeinsen Posted 3 January , 2017 Share Posted 3 January , 2017 Hello... I have scouted Cambri extensively and am sharing my pics here of the C51 location. I even found the top of one of the German shells used to knock out C51. My Grandfather was a Aerial Photographer in the German Army and was sent to Cambrai to document the destroyed British tanks in the aftermath of the battle. His pictures have mostly never been published. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johntaylor Posted 3 January , 2017 Share Posted 3 January , 2017 Hi JD, many thanks for posting these pictures, and like many others on the Forum, I would be fascinated to see more photographs of the British tanks knocked out at Cambrai. My recent book (Deborah and the War of the Tanks) includes two previously unpublished German photos showing D51 Deborah, the tank knocked out in Flesquières and excavated by Philippe Gorczynski. Incidentally the book also draws extensively on German printed and archive sources in an attempt to present a rounded account of the battle. I would be especially interested to know if you have any more photographs showing Deborah or the other D Battalion tanks. Looking forward to hearing more, John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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