Fokker DVIII

[Desdichado]

Did any German flyer score a significant amount of kills flying this machine? I believe only 400 or so were built but I don't know if any Jasta was fully equipped with them by war's end. I believe that Theo Osterkamp, later a high-ranking officer in Hitler's Luftwaffe, piloted one on the Western Front but I can't find a record of his kills.

I also believe that Pfalz designed a similar high-winged monoplane that looked promising but suffered catastrophic wing failure during tests. Was this the aircraft depicted in the film The Blue Max?

[centurion]

The only Pfalz high wing monoplane was a 1915 German copy of the Morane Sauliner L known as the Pfalz A1 - definitely not entered in any of the 1918 fighter competitions! Pfalz produced a number of low wing monoplanes (also MS copies) that looked very similar to the Fokker E type monoplanes (although structurally very different) perhaps this is where the confusion arises?

Re the DVIII Theo Osterkamp made his 25th and 26th victories with this aircraft. The use of the aircraft was very limited for two reasons

1 Early catastophic wing failures that grounded the aircraft for some time and took time to rectify (the cause is still a matter of dispute)

2. A shortage of castor oil lubricant for the engines. The ersatz oil used causing in flight engine seisures

[centurion]

To add to this no Jasta was fully equiped with the type. Jasta 8 had a few and the naval jastas had a few,

Apart from some further Fokker designs (including the V29 which looked rather like a monoplane DVII) only Daimler, Kondor and LFG Roland produced high wing monoplane fighters towards the end of the war. The LFG Roland did look something like the DVIII. None of these suffered wing failures. Reading the original novel it would seem that the aircraft refered to was in fact the DVIII itself. (The ending in the novel is somewhat different from the film as the anti hero sends a mate up in the aircraft and survives himself to appear in two successor novels).

[Desdichado]

The only Pfalz high wing monoplane was a 1915 German copy of the Morane Sauliner L known as the Pfalz A1 - definitely not entered in any of the 1918 fighter competitions! Pfalz produced a number of low wing monoplanes (also MS copies) that looked very similar to the Fokker E type monoplanes (although structurally very different) perhaps this is where the confusion arises?

Re the DVIII Theo Osterkamp made his 25th and 26th victories with this aircraft. The use of the aircraft was very limited for two reasons

1 Early catastophic wing failures that grounded the aircraft for some time and took time to rectify (the cause is still a matter of dispute)

2. A shortage of castor oil lubricant for the engines. The ersatz oil used causing in flight engine seisures

Yes, I got my wires crossed there with the Pfalz. Thanks for the info. - Des

[Desdichado]

Here's a picture of a Fokker DVIII from a museum in Pensacola, Florida. The SE-5a in the background appears to have French roundels.

[centurion]

Here's a picture of a Fokker DVIII from a museum in Pensacola, Florida. The SE-5a in the background appears to have French roundels.

Those are American roundels. A number of SE5as were in service in the US Army Air Corps in the early post war period.

[J T Gray]

The SE-5a in the background appears to have French roundels.

No expert, but I'm pretty sure that they are an early American roundel. I don't think the white star, with or without bars, was adopted until after WW1.

Adrian

[Desdichado]

No expert, but I'm pretty sure that they are an early American roundel. I don't think the white star, with or without bars, was adopted until after WW1.

Adrian

Thanks to Adrian & Centurion. I didn't know that.

[centurion]

No expert, but I'm pretty sure that they are an early American roundel. I don't think the white star, with or without bars, was adopted until after WW1.

Adrian

In fact the US used the roundel on aircraft used in France etc (to fall in with Allied practice) Stars in various forms were in use in America during 1914-18. The SE5as actually break slightly with this having 'overseas' roundels but based in the US.

The bars were added in WW2 to make the shape look as little like the Japanese red sun as posible (in the flashes of sudden action it appears that shape is more important than colour and even a white star in a blue circle could be misidentified in the fraction of a second needed to press a trigger - even worse when the US star had a red circle in the centre.)

[Adrian Roberts]

Here's a picture of a Fokker DVIII from a museum in Pensacola, Florida. The SE-5a in the background appears to have French roundels.

The stencilled serial on this aircraft shows it to be an EV. This was the original version; DVIII was the designation of the type after its reintroduction following the modifications to the wings.

Looks like a BE2b beyond the SE5a. Are all these replicas?

Adrian (different one!)

[Desdichado]

The stencilled serial on this aircraft shows it to be an EV. This was the original version; DVIII was the designation of the type after its reintroduction following the modifications to the wings.

Looks like a BE2b beyond the SE5a. Are all these replicas?

Adrian (different one!)

I don't know if they are replicas but the photos were taken at the National Museum of Naval Aviation in Pensacola. The wingtip in the left of the picture might be from a Nieuport 28.

[centurion]

The stencilled serial on this aircraft shows it to be an EV. This was the original version; DVIII was the designation of the type after its reintroduction following the modifications to the wings.

As the EV was only in service with Jasta 6 from the begining of August 1918 until 21st August 1918 (when the type was grounded and aircraft withdrawn due to the wing failures) and there were only ever a handful of EVs in service (possibly not even double figures) one wonders how one would have reached American hands. This would suggest that this machine is likely to be either a replica or a DVIII that has been resored and recovered with fabric and ended up with a different serial number.

[robmoff]

As the EV was only in service with Jasta 6 from the begining of August 1918 until 21st August 1918 (when the type was grounded and aircraft withdrawn due to the wing failures) and there were only ever a handful of EVs in service (possibly not even double figures) one wonders how one would have reached American hands. This would suggest that this machine is likely to be either a replica or a DVIII that has been resored and recovered with fabric and ended up with a different serial number.

There is a photograph of this machine issued to Marine-Feld-Jagdstaffel 3 with Oberfugmeister Carl Kuring in several publications. It was part of batch 107/18-169/18 that were in production when the static tests on mainplanes from 127/18 and a wing fresh off the production line were conducted on Sept 3-5th 1918. These test, and one on a mainplane produced under the personal supervision of Reinhold Platz [the designer] conducted on Sept 7th, showed that the failures were not due to the design but build quality. [You can have more details if you wish].

The upshot was that all EVs SHOULD have been fitted with lift wires or the new wing which had a strengthened spar. Aircraft with the new wing were to be designated DVIII. EVs fitted, or retro-fitted, with the new wing, were to be re-designated DVIII. It is known that not all EVs that had the new wing were re-classified. A few EVs, with the new wing, but still marked as EVs, served with the 7th Aviation Squadron of the Polish airforce in the first half of 1919. Since no lift wires are evident in the photo above, nor in the 1918 photo of EV143/18 it SHOULD have had the new wing and been re-designated DVIII.

The Americans shipped at least 2 DVIIIs back home and were evaluated at McCook airfield numbered 64345 and 94112. I don't have their original production numbers. we brits (and the French) decided not to evaluate the DVIII as we were familiar with the wing failure stories, but appeared to be unaware that this was a production quality issue that had been solved and not a design flaw. Another opportunity to learn missed!

I do agree though that the EV at Pensacola is probably a replica, and since photos of 143/18 in service exist these could have been used as a reference for the serial number and paint scheme.