armourersergeant Posted 18 January , 2004 Share Posted 18 January , 2004 Having recently seen and been to a few great war talks etc i have realised that as a non bilingual person that i have taken the wrong pronunciation on many French and Belgian towns and areas. I can manage the 'Mons' nice and easy for my tongue but when it comes to others i struggle. I was wondering if it would be possible to have an area here on the forum of on the main site ( Chris willing of course) along the lines below. Passchendaele.....Pasch-en-dale...... Or atleast you get my meaning I am sure i am pronouncing many wrong. Yours thickly Arm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 18 January , 2004 Share Posted 18 January , 2004 Do you want British pronunciations or real, local ones? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armourersergeant Posted 18 January , 2004 Author Share Posted 18 January , 2004 Oh blimey Chris i would just be happy to pronounce it correctly in any language. but i suppose we could have both Arm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 18 January , 2004 Share Posted 18 January , 2004 I was joking. I have heard Brits give some absolutely excruciating pronunciations of both French and Flemish place names. If I ever get round to doing this, I think we'd better make it 'as it should be spoke'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armourersergeant Posted 18 January , 2004 Author Share Posted 18 January , 2004 Touche, So was I.. i will have enough trouble pronouncing one let alone others. Arm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 18 January , 2004 Share Posted 18 January , 2004 Arm Chris is absolutely right : something the pronunciation is "excruciating". Flemish people who hear that massacred pronunciation produced by Brits get used to it after a while, and sometimes (as I do) often even adopt it ! Especially when it is one of those semi-ironic names given by soldiers in the War. (Like White Sheet for Wijtschate). The problem however is that if you are standing in Ypres Centre and ask directions to White Sheet, 99% of the locals won't understand you. As to the "correct" pronunciation, there is another problem. Also for "Passendale" (and this is the modern spelling) : the difference between standard language pronunciation (Dutch) and our local dialects. In our dialect, well... And this is extremely difficult to describe it since we cannot use phonetical writing... It is more or less reflected in the old spelling "Passchendale" or "Passchendaele". With "ssch" as in "show" or "passion", but followed by something that sounds like an -h-. (No wonder that it was distorted by soldiers into "Passiondale".) And the -a- in -dale... Well, some dialect speakers say the vowel as you in "ask" (British pronunciation), others as the vowel in "walk". That's the dialect. But I suppose you are more interested in standard language (Dutch) ? Let's say that it is pronounced more or less the way it is written. With an -a- (the first syllable) more open of course than in your English "cat". The -ss- just like your -s- (not as in "show", but as in "lesson"), and the -a- in the last syllable as a long -a-, more or less the one you have in "to ask" (British English). That was not easy to explain I'm afraid. Just an idea : if you really want to know for "Passendale" and dozens of other Flemish places : why don't you give me a call ? If you contact me of forum I'll give you my phone number. Just make sure a recorder is standby ... Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armourersergeant Posted 18 January , 2004 Author Share Posted 18 January , 2004 Aurel, A very kind offer which i may take you up on sometime. I am more concerned for the 'English' way of saying some of the towns and areas etc as i have sat and listened to people talking and realise they have pronounced something that i thought was a simple pronunciation that i have been saying incorrectly. This makes me a little embarressed to venture a question if it entails saying a word i am unsure of for fear of looking stupid (something i can do without any extra help) Take Ypres for instance...I say 'Yepra'...but would it perhaps be 'Epra' or even 'epe'? Thanks again for the offer. Arm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 18 January , 2004 Share Posted 18 January , 2004 Arm, No doubt about the standard language pronunciation of "IEPER" : - First sound (the vowel) : as in "DEEP" - And the rest of the word as the last part of English "LEPER". (But with the final -r pronounced.) In our dialect however, at the end the -e- is dropped, and sometimes there is one after the -r. And talking about "LEPER" (with an initial L !). Again I have received a letter or two recently calling our town LEPER ! Very strange. Mistaking our capital I for an L. And I suppose also related to the fact that in English there are no words beginning with IE-. As to the English pronunciation of YPRES, I will leave that to you. (It was discussed some time ago in a specific thread.) (Sorry for the capitals. Only for technical reasons. Did not mean to shout... Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 18 January , 2004 Share Posted 18 January , 2004 Any chance we can upload wav files Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gem22 Posted 18 January , 2004 Share Posted 18 January , 2004 Arm If it's any help at all even the Dutch can get wrong. As Aurel so well put it it's a matter of dialect. purely out of curiosity how do you pronounce Shrewsbury. My wife and I take quite different views on this. However she's a local girl and I'm a foreigner. To get back to my bit about the Dutch; I had a few days holiday in Delft this year with my wife. While chatting to a Dutchman he asked where we were going to next, I said 'Eeper' in Belgium. He corrected me and said it is called 'Eyeper'. Based on what Aurel said who was wrong? Me or the Dutchman - I'm still confused. Garth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christine liava'a Posted 18 January , 2004 Share Posted 18 January , 2004 purely out of curiosity how do you pronounce Shrewsbury. My wife and I take quite different views on this. However she's a local girl and I'm a foreigner As a true foreigner, / shroozbiree / How do you and your wife pronounce it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armourersergeant Posted 18 January , 2004 Author Share Posted 18 January , 2004 As far as i am concerned there is an 'e' in it not an 'o' so it is shreeewsbury not shrosbury... usually wrong. Arm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horace Bachelor Posted 18 January , 2004 Share Posted 18 January , 2004 I can't pronounce it either way. I call it Shwowsbuwy, or should that be Shwewsbuwy. I'm just glad I don't live there. I wish my parents had called me something else. Cheers Wichard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGWR Posted 18 January , 2004 Share Posted 18 January , 2004 I have often wondered about doing a phonetic dictionary of place names in British military history, perhaps with an accompanying audio CD. Does anyone feel like compiling one? I would buy it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aurel Sercu Posted 18 January , 2004 Share Posted 18 January , 2004 To get back to my bit about the Dutch; I had a few days holiday in Delft this year with my wife. While chatting to a Dutchman he asked where we were going to next, I said 'Eeper' in Belgium. He corrected me and said it is called 'Eyeper'. Based on what Aurel said who was wrong? Me or the Dutchman - I'm still confused. Garth, I'm just a bit confused about this myself. When your Dutchman said that the correct pronunciation of Ieper / Ypres was "Eyeper", I suppose he meant the correct 'English' pronunciation of that name ? For pronouncing Ieper in Dutch (Flemish) as "Eyeper" of course is totally impossible. As to the 'correct' (?) English pronunciation, this is the thread it was dealt with some months ago. http://www.1914-1918.org/forum/index.php?s...l=pronunciation Aurel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john kemp Posted 18 January , 2004 Share Posted 18 January , 2004 To slightly change the subject, anyone looking to learn a language, especially French, try and get Micheal Thomas cds', they are so good even those who can speak French very well learn from them and there is no looking at words wrote down, you just listen to him teaching two people from scratch how to speak and you just copy them, you are the third pupil. JMK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fleur Posted 19 January , 2004 Share Posted 19 January , 2004 To slightly change the subject, anyone looking to learn a language, especially French, try and get Micheal Thomas cds', they are so good even those who can speak French very well learn from them and there is no looking at words wrote down, you just listen to him teaching two people from scratch how to speak and you just copy them, you are the third pupil. JMK Couldn't agree more - Michele Thomas is great as it is intuative. I earnt loads by listening to his CD's and do feel far more confident when having to speak in French. Just struggle a bit when the natives speak back to me sometimes ..... but thanks to Michele I can now at least begin every conversation with 'I am english, me no speakie frenchy very well, please forgive my ignorance' or words to that effect! LOL Fleur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gem22 Posted 19 January , 2004 Share Posted 19 January , 2004 Arm I say 'Shro' my wife says 'Shroo', obviously she's right but I cannot force myself to copy her dialect. For the word Bus she says 'Buzz' I say 'Buss'. I guess we will always be incompitible. Aurel The Dutchman I spoke of was telling me the way he thought Ieper should be pronounced. Could it be another dialect problem. I was in Delft at the time. Garth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dee Posted 19 January , 2004 Share Posted 19 January , 2004 I can't pronounce it either way. I call it Shwowsbuwy, or should that be Shwewsbuwy. I'm just glad I don't live there. I got told off when I first moved to Shrewbury as, I am told by people born and bred here it is pronounced Shoosbury, never Shroasbury (posh persons version apparently). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Maier Posted 19 January , 2004 Share Posted 19 January , 2004 What would be really cool would be a series of contemporary maps. You click on a placename to hear a WAV file voiced by those of the Pals who are native speakers. It would be a great addition to the mother site if Chris could bear the thought of more work, more storage and more bandwidth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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