P and O Persia

[john w.]

Havent contributed to this thread before, navy not usually my scene... however I recently watched the Timewatch prog on the sinking of the Persia by sub commanded by Valentiner.

Was interested in the prog showing the salvage and also the background into the submarine war.

Interesting to hear that Eleanor Thornton, Lord Montague of Beaulieu's secretary and mistress was the model for Rolls Royce winged spirit...

Did anyone else see it?

John

[CROONAERT]

Yes.

I watched it mainly for the insight it gave into a submarine officer's war: "Don't wash or shave for weeks (fresh water's too valuable to use in washing), drink only Cognac or whisky". - Ah, Heaven!!!

(good "Das Boot" style clips ,also!)

Dave.

[Terry_Reeves]

An interesting enough programme for sure. What caught my attention was the wife of the expedition leader being critical of the U boat commander for sinking the ship on one hand, and on the other, quite happy to rip into the wreck to get at the goodies in the bullion room, the real motivation for the expedition it seems.

Terry Reeves

[roger]

I received a text message from a mate along the lines of "Watch Timewatch tonight I'm on it as a German submariner."

He is in the Navy and based at HMS Colllingwood, Fareham. I haven't spoken to him yet but I would imagine the inside the u-boat scenes were filmed onboard HMS Alliance at the submarine museum Gosport.

Roger

[Guest Pete Wood]

The Spirit of Ecstasy is one of the most well known motor car mascot in the world. Designed by Charles Robinson Sykes, The Spirit of Ecstasy has adorned the radiators of Rolls-Royce motor cars since 1911.

This wonderful mascot was modeled after a young woman who had bewitching beauty, intellect and esprit - but not the social status which might have permitted her to marry the man with whom she had fallen in love.

The model was Eleanor Velasco Thornton, whose relationship with John Walter Edward-Scott-Montagu remained a secret for over a decade, principally because both lovers acted with the utmost discretion.

John Scott, heir to his father's title, was a pioneer of the automobile in England. From 1902 he was editor of the "The Car". Eleanor Thornton served as his secretary. Friends of the pair knew of their close relationship but they were sufficiently understanding as to overlook it.

A member of this circle of friends was the sculptor Charles S Sykes. Lord Montagu ordered t he creation of a special mascot for his Rolls-Royce Silver Ghost. The small statue depicted a young woman in fluttering robes having placed one forefinger to her lips. The sculptor had chosen Eleanor Thornton as model for this figurine, which was christened "The Whisper".

Lord Montagu had made the decision to put a mascot on top of the radiator, and it had become a fashion. Rolls-Royce had noted other owners of their cars following the new vogue, but doing so with questionable style by choosing mundane or even risqué and vulgar subjects.

Following Lord Montagu's commission, Charles Sykes was asked to create a mascot which in future would adorn every Rolls-Royce. In February 1911 he presented the "Spirit of Ecstasy", which was easily recognizable as being a variation on the theme of "The Whisper". The similarity was hardly coincidental because the model for both had been Miss Thornton.

The Spirit of Ecstasy was delivered by the Company with every Rolls-Royce. Each was done using the technique which was thousands of years old and known as the lost-wax method. This practice results in the mould's being destroyed to reveal the casting, which explains why no two figures are exactly alike.

Sykes, assisted by his daughter Jo, remained responsible for manufacturing the Spirit of Ecstasy for many years. Likewise, each of the unique creations bore his signature on the plinth. The sculptures are either signed "Charles Sykes, February 1911" or sometimes "Feb 6, 1911" or "6.2.11".

Even after Rolls-Royce took over the casting of the figures in 1948 each Spirit of Ecstasy continued to receive this inscription until 1951.

And here is Eleanor....

[Stephen White]

I waited with some anticipation for this programme and for the major part of it came away disappointed and very angry.it turned out to be no more than a glorified treasure hunt and the treatment of the wreck,the last know resting place of 300+ soles was CRIMINAL.should be treated with the same respect as any grave on land would be.i appreciate that the operating conditions were difficult and didn't lend themselves to "delicate and precise" technology,but i still felt that their methods were very "scrap yard"and they certainly didn't leave the ship as they found it thats for certain.about all that we learnt was that the individuals concerned were after treasure and they were prepared to wreck the ship to do it !!.

The insight in to the birth of submarine war fare saved the programme.and the use of original diaries and logs an excellent idea.given that he was at the forefront of a new type of warfare and was having to make up the rules as he went along,and considering his concerns for his men i can understand why he did what he did.might have been hard to stomach at the time,but i think history has shown him not to be the War criminal that he was once tried for.well certainly no more criminal that the people who pulled the ship apart in the persute of riches.

Steven

[john w.]

was a bit like grab it and run.. but then they were 2 miles away so to get to the bullion room was a bit amazing...

However having said that was it a war grave? yes 300 died, accepted. But then look at the Titanic. I was lucky enough to interview Eva Hart on the 75th anniversary of its sinking and she vigorously defended the point that on no account should an attempt be made to take anything from it. She lost her father and it was his grave.

It is a dilemma for anyone facing a salvage expedition.

John

[Stephen White]

I was going to mention the Titanic in my posting.but once i start on that subject i can't stop.what they've done to her since they re-discovered her is appaling.both ship's should have been left alone.

Yes i agree considering the deapth and the methods used amazing that they got into the bullion room.just made a mess of the ship doing it,which should have been left alone anyway.

Steven

[Drummy]

Interesting point steven, 'made a mess of the ship doing it', lets not forget that the ship has been torpedoed and is lying on the seabed 2 miles down so the fact that some of the ship has been further damaged is not, in my opinion, a major thing as not many people are going to notice!

Considering that only reason's such as salvage etc., would justify investors etc placing a lot of money into a project to visit a ship 2 miles beneath the sea, at least they allowed a documentary to be made and show us, the general public, a glimpse of history, fascinating. I have no problem with the recovery of artifacts from ships such as this if they are displayed in museums and further the interest and knowledge of terrible incidents such as this. Likewise if there was a ship's hold full of gold / jewels why leave it there?

Where I do not agree on salvage etc is when it is on ships, such as this, where they are War graves and most likely large amounts of people died inside the ship itself.

[john w.]

Not an easy one to answer in the end. I suppose there are some ships that are more sensitive than others. e.g. no chance of salvaging the Arizona in Pearl Harbour.

It is just where you draw the line and people/society accept what is happening I suppose

John

[Stephen White]

Where I do not agree on salvage etc is when it is on ships, such as this, where they are War graves and most likely large amounts of people died inside the ship itself.

could have saved myself a lot of time,this is really all i needed to say.yes who would notice the mess they made of the ship considering it's two miles down and was torpedoed in the first place.perhaps a better thing to say would be please leave it alone it's the last resting place of 300+ people,leave it how you find it because of this.

John,yes another one of those "where do you draw the line" questions.one that will probably never, really be answered in many cases where large numbers of dead are involved.

Steven

[john w.]

One that will be debated forever I feel

John

[mcderms]

I am a keen scuba diver and have dived on many military wrecks in the UK. I was disgusted by the TimeWatch program which attempted to show a purely commercial operation in an archaeological light. This was smash and grab salvage of the worst possible kind and the salvers had not even employed an archaeologist to examine and preserve the artefacts that were recovered during the plundering.

I have dived on wrecks were people have died and we have a very simple credo: take pictures, leave bubbles. People like the Persia salvers are most definitely grave robbers in exactly the same way as if they'd broken into a tomb on land and grabbed the gold. The only justification they can offer is that as the wreck was in international waters, if they hadn't done it then someone else would have. For anyone who thinks this is the case, can I refer you to 'Goldfinder' by Keith Jessop, a man who literally wrote the book on sensitive salving of valuable wrecks.

The Persia oirates are excatly the people who will have all wreck diving banned one day. As this means no more wrecks discovered, no more historical mysteries solved and no more relatives comforted by finding the final resting place of a loved one then what price out maritime heritage?