Andrew Marshall Posted 17 January , 2003 Share Posted 17 January , 2003 Does anyone have any information about the 6th Bn. Border Regt. and if they were present at Hill 60 on or around the date 09/08/15. I am looking to try and put a name to a photo that I have found at the library in Gravesend on the back is written Pte. Robert Ward missing presumed killed Hill Sixty. I have looked up the details for the name Robert Ward on SDGW and there are 26, one of them died at Gallipoli, although he was a Company Sergeant Major and therefore probably not my man, but I need to eliminate as many as possible. Regards Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 18 January , 2003 Share Posted 18 January , 2003 I don't know specifically about the 6/Border Regiment, but I'm researching the 11/Manchesters who were part of the same division-the 11th (different brigade however - Mancs were 34th Bde,Borderers were 33rd). What I do know is that the 11th Division,including the 11/Manchesters and,presumably,the 6/Borders were not at Hill 60,but were fighting at W Hills slightly to the north. Seeing as Hill 60 is next to W Hills,it may be an error on the photo's caption. Were any Border Regiment battalions present at Hill60 in the Salient at this particular time? Just a thought. Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim_davies Posted 18 January , 2003 Share Posted 18 January , 2003 Andrew, This is from "British Regiments at Gallipoli" by Westlake for the 6th Borders for the period you're interested in: "In close support of 6th Lincolnshire took part in attack on Chocolate Hill. Moved from top of Chocolate Hill to reserve positions on beach behind Lala Baba (8th Aug). Casualties-4 killed, 53 wounded, 3 missing. Moved forward to positions under Chocolate Hill (9th August)." As you can see its a way from Hill 60. The only other Border Battalion at Gallipoli, the 1st were apparently at Fusilier Bluff, Cape Helles, at this period My understanding is that in the earlier part of August there wasn't much action around the Hill. And I seem to remember when reading about the accounts to storm the Hill on the 21st and 27th that the Aussie 4th (?) Brigade had passed over the hill unopposed during their night march towards Kocacimentepe around the 7th, 8th, 9th August-not sure exactly when. Perhaps your man could be an Australian, there's a Private 1640 Robert David Ward, 13th battalion died 22nd August 1915 on the CWGC site. I'm pretty sure this unit took part in the assault on Hill 60 on the 21st/22nd. Good luck, Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Marshall Posted 18 January , 2003 Author Share Posted 18 January , 2003 Thanks Jim and Dave for those replies. I suppose I'm really just digging around and trying to eliminate some possiblities, I didn't really think that the C.S.M. was my man, the photo is a very young private in what appears to be an early uniform (although I have to confess I have little knowledge of this). I shall attempt to describe the uniform; forgive incorrect terms. Khaki, boots, puttees, webbing belt, leather bandolier with ammunition pouches (across chest), white "lanyard" hanging from left breast pocket and an elongated badge over his right breast pocket. No insignia, shoulder flashes or badges visible including rank or wound badges/stripes. Jim the idea that he is Australian is an area to pursue, I had automatically started with a West Kent considering Hill 60 and my area but can't seem to make this stick, I suppose like all these things the information was supplied by someone writing on the back of the photograph and this may be wrong right from the beginning - Wild goose chase? Thanks again for the input Regards Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 18 January , 2003 Share Posted 18 January , 2003 Not wanting to complicate things but could it be the alternative Hill 60 and his middle name was Robert. There was a tendency for people to use middle names in the early 20th century ? Myrtle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Marshall Posted 18 January , 2003 Author Share Posted 18 January , 2003 Myrtle It can't get anymore comlex - I haven't got anywhere yet! Alternative Hill 60 (?) can you elaborate? And yes it could be his middle name being used, I don't have any hard facts on this one and I am really just floating idea's in the hope that something may jump up and bite me. Regards Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted 18 January , 2003 Share Posted 18 January , 2003 I was looking at the 1st Royal West Kents' war diary last week and they were at Hill 60 (Western Front) in April 1915. Unfortunately I didn't get time to carry on any further. I just thought this might be your West Kent connection. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 18 January , 2003 Share Posted 18 January , 2003 Andrew. Is his tunic different than the standard British style? If you can see "bellows" style lower pockets,and/or button fastening cuffs,then he is an Australian. Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Marshall Posted 18 January , 2003 Author Share Posted 18 January , 2003 Andrew. Is his tunic different than the standard British style? If you can see "bellows" style lower pockets,and/or button fastening cuffs,then he is an Australian. Dave. Looking at the photo the pockets seem standard and are not the bellows type that you mention, there are no button cuffs either - so British issue probably Regards Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 18 January , 2003 Share Posted 18 January , 2003 Andrew I was wondering about Hill 60 - Western Front as Michael has already mentioned. I believe the South Staffords were also there but obviously they are not a local Reg. to Kent ! Regards Myrtle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Marshall Posted 18 January , 2003 Author Share Posted 18 January , 2003 Myrtle My initial thoughts on the identity of this man was Royal West Kent Regt. Hill 60, Ypres April 1915. I have tried every avenue of researching this and so far I have not been successful. Either he didn't die and survived the war, maybe POW. Was killed at a later point of the war than the attack on Hill 60 in April - maybe a tour of trenches at Hill 60. Or the name is wrong to start with. With any of these alternatives he could have served in any Regiment that was at Hill 60 at any time during the war. There are 18 men with the surname Ward who are listed in the Royal West Kents of these only one has a connection to Gravesend. G/4069 Pte. George Ward 7th Bn. KIA 13/07/16 Born Stone, enlisted Gravesend, resident Greenhithe. The 7th Bn. was attacking Trones Wood on the Somme at the time so I have eliminated him on the grounds that he doesn't have the same name and he died in a different country! There are 26 Robert Wards on SDGW. I suppose if we could identify from the Regiments in this list those that served at Hill 60 at any time during the war it would start to narrow the field down - but then to make the connection to Gravesend (if there is one at all). From this list I have taken those listed as DOW or at Home and those dying in any other theatre other than F & F. That leaves 18, their Regiments are: 11th Bn. Lancashire Fusiliers 7th Bn. Lincolnshire Regt. 8th Bn. Seaforth Highlanders 2nd Bn. Royal Welsh Fusiliers 1st Bn. Royal Welsh Fusiliers 1st Bn. Suffolk Regt. 22nd Bn. Durham Light Infantry 4th Bn. Middlesex Regt. 8th Bn. Rifle Brigade 2nd Bn. Grenadier Guards 12th Bn. Royal Fusiliers 6th Bn. Queen's 10th Bn. Queen's 8th Bn. London Regt. 1st Bn. Royal Dublin Fusiliers 16th Bn. London Regt. 12th Bn. London Regt. 1st Bn. Northumberland Fusiliers Can we cross any of these off that we know didn't serve any time at Hill 60? Regards Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 18 January , 2003 Share Posted 18 January , 2003 Andrew, Long shot, but following on from the comment by Jim Davies..... Could it actually read Hill 10 rather than Hill 60? I ask because if the battalion were at Suvla Bay and named as near Chocloate Hill / Lala Baba, then Hill 10 is only a couple of miles from each location. Just a thought! All the best, Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Marshall Posted 18 January , 2003 Author Share Posted 18 January , 2003 Could it actually read Hill 10 rather than Hill 60? I ask because if the battalion were at Suvla Bay and named as near Chocloate Hill / Lala Baba, then Hill 10 is only a couple of miles from each location. Andrew Actually written Hill Sixty. Regards Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Marshall Posted 18 January , 2003 Author Share Posted 18 January , 2003 Dear all These are the exact words Pte Robt. Ward missing presumed killed Hill Sixty Regards Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Hesketh Posted 18 January , 2003 Share Posted 18 January , 2003 Well, I said it was a long shot! Shame though, I thought I was being darned clever! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raster Scanning Posted 19 January , 2003 Share Posted 19 January , 2003 Andrew When you say elongated badge over the left pocket, do you mean left as you look at the picture or Pte Wards left. This badge sounds like the Imperial Service Badge, if so your man was a Territorial, this badge was worn to show that a soldier had agreed to serve overseas (the Territorials were set up for home defence). It was worn over the soldiers right pocket and consisted of a silver bar with the words "Imperial Service" and above in the centre a crown. Many territorial Battalions were issued with the leather bandoliers, so this fits as well. From the CWGC site there are 5 Territorial Battalions with Robert or R Ward listed, the 1/1, 1/8th, 1/12, 1/16th and 1/24th London Reg's. The Robert Ward in the 1/12 Battalion was killed on 1-7-16 (first day of Battle of Somme) so he can be discounted, One of the remaining should be your man. R Ward 1/1 Battalion died 28-3-18 (possibly not a Robert, SDGW should help). Robert J Ward 1/8 Battalion died 25-5-15 Robert J Ward 1/16 Battalion died 10-9-16 Robert C Ward 1/24 Battalion died 5-6-17 Can anyone help with the locations of these Battalions on these dates? Best wishes. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Marshall Posted 19 January , 2003 Author Share Posted 19 January , 2003 This badge sounds like the Imperial Service Badge, if so your man was a Territorial, this badge was worn to show that a soldier had agreed to serve overseas (the Territorials were set up for home defence). It was worn over the soldiers right pocket and consisted of a silver bar with the words "Imperial Service" and above in the centre a crown. John That's exactly what it sounds like and yes it is above his right pocket. Thanks for all that information, I now feel like I'm getting somewhere with this small problem. Regards Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Marshall Posted 19 January , 2003 Author Share Posted 19 January , 2003 R Ward 1/1 Battalion died 28-3-18 (possibly not a Robert, SDGW should help). Robert J Ward 1/8 Battalion died 25-5-15 Robert J Ward 1/16 Battalion died 10-9-16 Robert C Ward 1/24 Battalion died 5-6-17 John The following is the results from the list of men you provided: 1. Name is Reginald and DOW. 2. Robert James and is commemorated on Le Touret Memorial. 3. Robert John Bernae and is commemorated on Thiepval Memorial. 4. Robert Stanley and is commemorated on Thiepval Memorial. As you can see all of these are no where near Hill 60. I thank you again for trying to provide me with an answer and at least I can partially eliminate these men from the any list. In fact this has given me an idea! I shall now look up the cemetery or memorial for the rest of the Robert Wards of the list from SDGW and see if any are in the area for Hill 60, thanks. Regards Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 19 January , 2003 Share Posted 19 January , 2003 Andrew Is it possible to give an approximate age from the photograph. teens, twenties, thirties ? Regards Myrtle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 19 January , 2003 Share Posted 19 January , 2003 Andrew, This may seem speculation but having found that researching soldiers is often less than straight forward what do you think of this as a possibility? Richard Ernest Ward was with the 1st Bn West Kent Regiment. He was 18 (hence my question earlier) when he was killed in action 18/04/15 at (most probably) Hill 60. The West Kents suffered fifty percent casualties there at that time. Ricahrd is commemorated on the Menin Gate. Now you may say "But his name is not Robert." This is when I started to wonder if Richard Ward had a brother Robert. According to 1901 Census (and I know that it doesn't always work until you follow up in more detail) the only combination of a Charles, Sarah and Richard Ward in the South London/Kent area were living in Bromley. The only Robert Ward of suitable age as a brother was also in Bromley. Robert was said to be 1 year old and Richard 4. Richard's age ties in with the date of 18 in CWGC. Also SDGW gives place of birth as Mottingham, Kent and 1901 census gives Nottingham, Kent. If the information on your photograph was written on at a later date the names of the two brothers could have been mixed up. What do you think ? Regards Myrtle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 19 January , 2003 Share Posted 19 January , 2003 Just to throw some more "coals onto the fire".Is there a possibility that your man is a New Zealander? The New Zealand contingent were heavily involved in the fighting at Hill 60 (the Gallipoli one) around this date,many of them being originally from Britain.Their uniforms were also pretty much the same as the British.The only exception being that they usually wore the "lemon squeezer" hat.This is not always the case,however,as I've seen many photos of them in SD caps - the same as the Brits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Marshall Posted 19 January , 2003 Author Share Posted 19 January , 2003 Myrtle He looks early twenties possibly teens at a push. In answer to the NZ possibility, the badge he is wearing is definately Imperial Service badge as described in an early posting, did the NZ forces have this? The results of my search for those who could have died near Hill 60 left me with the following results Robert Ward KIA 8th Bn Seaforths. - Wrong uniform. Robert Ward KIA 2nd Bn. Royal Welsh Fusiliers - Right age, but parents and SDGW details for Jarrow. Robert Charles Ward DOW 24th Bn. London Regt. - DOW SDGW and parents details Battersea, Clapham. Robert Harry Ward KIA 12th Bn. Royal Fusiliers - Right age, but parents and SDGW details Willesden. As you can see none of these really fit the bill and this means that tying in a name to the photo found in Gravesend Library is going to be very difficult if not impossible, the initial information may be totally wrong as I have said earlier, which leads me to the rest of Mytle's suggestion. S/9031 Pte Richard Ernest Ward Queen's Own Royal West Kent Regiment. KIA 18/04/15 Aged 18. Parents; Henry Thomas and Sarah Jane Ward. This still remains an option but again how does it fit in with Gravesend? Thanks again for helping. Regards Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myrtle Posted 19 January , 2003 Share Posted 19 January , 2003 Andrew The SDGW says that Richard E. Ward was: Born : Mottingham, Kent Enlisted Woolwich SE Resided: Lewisham SE The move to Gravesend by a family member would not be unusual from South London/ Kent borders. There are only two Charles Ward (one probably being Richard's father) in Bromley 1901. One was a grocer, shopkeeper and the other was a house decorator. If the parents moved to Gravesend before retirement you may find something through the trade directories normally held in local library. If they retired to that area they would be more difficult to trace. The other possibility is that brother Robert/or his family moved to Gravesend. Speculation, who knows ? Regards Myrtle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raster Scanning Posted 19 January , 2003 Share Posted 19 January , 2003 Hi If he is wearing an Imperial Service badge on his right breast, then he was definately a British Territorial, he could have transferred to another Regiment after the picture was taken, of course. Any chance of us seeing the picture? John. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Marshall Posted 20 January , 2003 Author Share Posted 20 January , 2003 John If I could find out how to upload an image to this site then possibly! Myrtle I shall check the trade listing for this possibility, I have already done the street directories for private residence. Regards Andrew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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