Couple of Middle East Photos

[MartH]

I found these in a copy of "A Brief Record of the Egyptian Expeditionary Force", UK edition.

On the back of the First photo in pencil it says "****** Ridge area (square J) 1", on the second "The ground over which the 4/5" ***** fought in the Battle of ****** view from ******** **** (Square Q 13)

I checked, the maps are not numbered using alphabet defined squares in the book.

So where are the photos taken?

Regards,

Mart

[michaeldr]

quote: "The ground over which the 4/5" ***** fought"

Mart,

Could this be the 4/5th Battalion Welsh Regiment (1/4th and 1/5th Battalions amalgamated 3/8/18)?

It was part of the 159th Infantry Brigade, of the 53rd Division

If so, this might narrow down the field somewhat

regards

Michael

[wroclaw]

Mart!

As for the first I am almost sure it belongs to the northern stripe of the Judean hills: the Area north, north-west and NNW of Jerusaelm: Either Tel Asur, Beit ur el Foqa ect. - places where many actions took place in Dec. 1917-March 1918 and aftrewards.

As for the second: Being arid but still on a certain front line, I would say it is somewhere in the triangle of Jerusalem-Jericho-Ramalla. Could also be the eastern slopes of Samaria facing the Jordan valley.

All togather all options for both pictures are included in a fairly small area.

G

[MartH]

Thanks for the information, they certainly show the terrain fought over in this campaign, I will go back and look at the maps

I've scanned the backs of the photos to see if any members can decipher them. And enlarged, I can read Welsh now, spot on Michael!

Regards

Mart

[SiegeGunner]

The ground over which the 4/5th Welch fought in the Battle of Megiddo - view from Round Hill (Square Q 13)

[michaeldr]

Mart,

Top marks to Gal; right first time - Tel Asur

see the map I have shown here in post #2

 

Sinjil is in the top centre just above the words "74th Division Final Line" and just to the left (west) of the words "53rd Division"

Presumably the village sits on a ridge at that point

see also the text in the same post re the battle there on March 8th-9th, 1918

Later on I might get a chance to have a look for 'Round Hill'; if I find anything then I will let you know

regards

Michael

[JulianB]

The problem is that the Battle of Megiddo were in September 1918 whereas the action apparently described here relate to the Battle of Tel Asur which was in March. There is a little detail on the action of the 4/5 Welsh in square Q13 on p 200 (with map opp) in Ward's Hist of the 53rd (their WD may be more useful). I couldn't find any mention of 'Round Hill' - the only major 'site' in Q13 is Kh Abu Felah, though Asur itself (some way SW of Q13) was descr as a 'bare conical hill with 2 or 3 trees on top'.

Sinjil is way off to the NW and I don't think in the area of any 4/5 Welsh action.

The photographs will be v difficult to pinpoint unless one chances on the same view found somewhere else - there is the barest of similarities in the photo opp p198 (Ward) which is actually looking in the right direction

Julian

[MartH]

Siege Gunner, Michael and Julian

Thanks for all this information, I will recheck the book for any annotation and see if its got a signature of the owner.

Many thanks again

Mart

[michaeldr]

From the 'Brief Record of Service' [in 'The Advance of the Egyptian Expeditionary Force' HMSO 1919]

"March to September 1918 - 53rd Division remained in the same sector of the line throughout the summer

September 18th, - The general attack that was to smash the Turkish Armies in Palestine commenced at 2200 (hrs) when 1/17th Infantry (160th Brigade) moved north in the direction of Square Hill, followed by the rest of the brigade. Further to the left 159th Brigade captured Round Hill (overlooking Kh. Abu Felah) at 2230"

The second photograph refers to the 4th/5th and to Megiddo

However, the first photograph simply says "Sinjil Ridge area (square J)"

Thus the first photograph could have been taken at any time between March and September 1918

Going back to the map in the thread which I linked to in post # 6 above

You will see 'Kh. Abu Felah' just referred to, immediately inside the 53rd Div's Final Line

Another map is att. below, and there you will be able to make out Sinjil, Kh. Abu Felah and Round Hill

This map is 'The Battles of Sharon and Nablus - Turkish dispositions at Zero hour on the 19th September, 1918' from the OH.

You will note from the Brief Record quoted earlier, Zero hour for these chaps arrived a little ahead of the rest

regards

Michael

[JulianB]

Michael, brilliant, I thought you'd find a decent map somewhere. My info came from my gt g'fthr who was with 53rd Div Arty at the time so I'm trying to trace his movements etc. Julian PS yes Mart, I'd also be interested to see what else you get out of this.

[MartH]

I second the brilliant. If anyone wants high quality scans, pm me your email address.

Will check the book later tonight, in the middle of a mammoth scanning session for another forum member for his book.

Regards

Mart

[michaeldr]

Julian & Mart,

Pleased to have been of help here

and thank you for the kind responses

[i cannot help noting the contrast with the other thread mentioned above

where my two interlocutors just disappeared into the ether;

I must be getting old]

Very best regards

Michael

[MartH]

Greeting

I've found signature on the front of the book, I will scan later, don't hold you breath, but it might be the same handwriting, nothing in the text.

I also found a loose map called "The Capture of Jerusalem" no date, anyone know about it? Should I scan that to?

I've also found some references in the German OH.

I'm going to print this thread off, its so interesting to me, never expected it, might have to visit!

Thanks again

Mart

[MartH]

This might be the original owner of the book, and I think the photographer, now if we decipher the name, is he in the Welch?

and the photo colours reversed

Thoughts? ****** ** Lee?

Mart

[JulianB]

My first thoughts is that it might be Rich[ard] H Lee. I had a quick look at Lee Welsh Regiment in MIC but there are nearly 100 of them so didn't pursue it just now.

I still think it might be an idea to look at the 4/5 WD, also I'm GUESSING it might be an officer.

J

[michaeldr]

My guess for the first name would be 'Arch' as in Archibald

and for the middle initial, an 'N', but it is far from clear

All agreed about the surname - Lee

This part is going to be tougher

Regards

Michael

[michaeldr]

Mart,

There was a Capt. Archibald Henry Lee served with The Welch Regt.

entered theatre Egypt 3/10/16

When I've worked out how to copy his MiC I'll put it up here for you

ps: sorry, this is going to have to wait as photobucket are doing site maintenance

regards

Michael

Edited 2 November , 2007 by michaeldr

[MartH]

This is great, I bet it is the guy. Archie H Lee

I'm going to rescan the photos at a higher density, and then enlarge to see if we can pick out anything of interest.

Mart

[michaeldr]

Mart,

This could be your man

Please let us know if you make any further progress with his details

best regards

Michael

[michaeldr]

Mart,

I do hope that this does indeed turn out to be your man

see 'Supplement to the London Gazette, 16th August, 1917.'

His Majesty the KING has been graciously

pleased to confer the Military Cross on

the undermentioned Officers and Warrant

Officers in recognition of their gallantry

and devotion to duty in the Field :—

"2nd Lt. Archibald Henry Lee, Welsh R.

For conspicuous gallantry and devotion to

duty. He went back and collected reinforcements

under heavy machine-gun and

rifle fire at close range, regardless of his own

safety. He then organised and successfully

led the final assault from his part of the line."

[cahoehler]

From the 'Brief Record of Service' [in 'The Advance of the Egyptian Expeditionary Force' HMSO 1919]

"March to September 1918 - 53rd Division remained in the same sector of the line throughout the summer

September 18th, - The general attack that was to smash the Turkish Armies in Palestine commenced at 2200 (hrs) when 1/17th Infantry (160th Brigade) moved north in the direction of Square Hill, followed by the rest of the brigade. Further to the left 159th Brigade captured Round Hill (overlooking Kh. Abu Felah) at 2230" . . .

Michael

A very belated request.

At your convenience, I would appreciate a similiar image showing the area around Square Hill (and possibly Chevron, Crest and End Hills).

I am looking specifically for the Cape Corps (160th Brigade).

This is the German field gun captured from the Turks during the battle and presented to the Cape Corps and which now stands near the Cenotaph in Kimberley (image by the late Colyn Brookes).

Thank you

Carl

[michaeldr]

Carl,

I'll look this up over the weekend and get back to you

Michael

[cahoehler]

Michael

At your convenience.

Thanks.

Carl

[michaeldr]

Carl,

First of all, many thanks for the wonderful photograph from Kimberley.

If you can get hold of it, then see 'The Story of the 1st Cape Corps (1915-1919)' by Captain I. D. Difford

There is a photograph of the gun(s) on page 203

see also the text pages 210/211

"On the same night at Square Hill Lance-Corporal Thimm (3713) and the Lewis gun sections of " C " and " D " Companies captured an enemy field gun. They were on the flank and saw the gun moving down a road. They at once got into action at three hundred yards range and shot down all the mules except one. The gun team were all killed, except one sergeant who escaped.

This gun was brought into camp the following evening and was the first gun captured on the Palestine front during Allenby's great push. It is now in Pretoria, with another one mentioned below, until such time as it can be placed with the 1st Cape Corps Memorial which is to be erected at Cape Town in due course. For this bit of good work Lance-Corporal Thimm was promoted Corporal.

Another gun was put out of action on the northern slopes of Square Hill about the same time, and we got it when we advanced towards Kh Jibeit next day."

Yet another photograph of the two guns, this time in Pretoria, appears on page 220 (Presumably taken in the early 1920s)

There is also a photograph of Square Hill on page 205

and an aerial photograph of the terrain on page 206 which seems to be dated 1-9-18 (?) and may have been used/issued together with the orders

"The Brigade will make a night march and break through the enemy

works on Wye Hill and advance along the watershed east of the Wady

Samieh to Dhib and Square Hills with the object of entering the enemy's

main line defences at Valley View and about El Mugheir from the rear

of those works."

To get back to your request for a map…

Pages 208 & 9 have a good sketch map including Square Hill

Similarly, pages 224 & 5 have a sketched plan of the positions of 'C' and 'D' Companies on Square Hill as at 10.00 hrs on 19/09/18

I am afraid that I have nothing in detail re Square Hill other than the above and what you have seen already in my previous posts here on the GWF

[in one case the area is under the title tablet of the map and in the second it is just off the map's eastern border]

I can show you the general area in relation to the Jordan (Rift) Valley [note; this map does not relate to Sept.1918]

And I can point you in the direction of the PEF's 1880 maps

see http://www.jnul.huji.ac.il/dl/maps/pal/htm...al002368494.htm

you need map No. XV

These PEF maps were the basis for those used by Allenby's staff in 1918

and note that one of the RE officers who did the original survey was one, Lt. H. H. Kitchener

Best regards

Michael

Edited 17 October , 2008 by michaeldr

[cahoehler]

Michael

Thanks indeed for a comprehensive answer.

Here is another view.

Carl