Aaron Pegram Posted 14 October , 2007 Share Posted 14 October , 2007 Hi guys, Fort MacDonald at Lille gets a mention in a lot of records of allied POW captured on the Western Front, so I thought I should post a few photos. It now goes by the name of Fort de Mons, and is a library and cultural center not all that far away from the Eurostar terminal at Lille. Although the librarian told me that there was nothing there of interest, I accidentally 'lost' myself trying to find the loo, and found an amphitheater over which commandeered a German machine gun emplacement. There were also lots of ventilation shafts which indicated cellars below. Cheers, Aaron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Pegram Posted 14 October , 2007 Author Share Posted 14 October , 2007 And some more... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Pegram Posted 14 October , 2007 Author Share Posted 14 October , 2007 and some more again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobalanjones Posted 9 November , 2007 Share Posted 9 November , 2007 Hi guys, Fort MacDonald at Lille gets a mention in a lot of records of allied POW captured on the Western Front, so I thought I should post a few photos. It now goes by the name of Fort de Mons, and is a library and cultural center not all that far away from the Eurostar terminal at Lille. Although the librarian told me that there was nothing there of interest, I accidentally 'lost' myself trying to find the loo, and found an amphitheater over which commandeered a German machine gun emplacement. There were also lots of ventilation shafts which indicated cellars below. Cheers, Aaron Hi Aaron First time back on the site for a while (found this current entry via a google update on Ft MacDonald). All I can say is a great big thank you Aaron for providing us with such a brilliant set of photos. My father was one of those who spent time in the notorious Black Hole. Kindest Regards, Bob Jones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Johnson Posted 12 November , 2007 Share Posted 12 November , 2007 Prisoners marching out of the Citadel at Lille. Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Pegram Posted 13 November , 2007 Author Share Posted 13 November , 2007 All I can say is a great big thank you Aaron for providing us with such a brilliant set of photos. Its my pleasure Bob. Do you know when he was there? April 1917 by any chance? Cheers, Aaron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Havrincourt Posted 13 November , 2007 Share Posted 13 November , 2007 Superb photographs, thank you ,where abouts in Lille is the Fort Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Pegram Posted 13 November , 2007 Author Share Posted 13 November , 2007 Where abouts in Lille is the Fort? Gday Andy, If the restaurant there is addressed 4 rue de Normandie, 59370, Mons en Baroeul, Nord if that is of any help. I had no idea where we were. In fact we got lost trying to find the place! Cheers, Aaron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Havrincourt Posted 13 November , 2007 Share Posted 13 November , 2007 Thanks Aaron Think we will take a look on next years trip Cheers Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Pegram Posted 13 November , 2007 Author Share Posted 13 November , 2007 My advice Andy would be to go there early in the afternoon and 'accidentally' get lost like I did. You wont see any of the cells because their entrances are all locked up, and you wont get any interpretation from the staff mainly because they really have no idea of what happened there. There is a historical society in the Fort itself, but I get the impression that they're interested in the surrounding forts from Napoleonic times. Do you speak French Andy? I have the email address of one of the Historical society members. I dont know how well connected he is, but some photos of the cells would be a great help to many people on this forum researching POW. A. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobalanjones Posted 1 December , 2007 Share Posted 1 December , 2007 Its my pleasure Bob. Do you know when he was there? April 1917 by any chance? Cheers, Aaron HI. Aaron, sorry for such a delay in replying. Have not checked in for a while plus been in hospital. I do not know exactly when my father was in Fort MacDonald, only that it must have been in 1917/18 and the fact that he escaped shortly before Armistice Day 1918. As he had three Army numbers, (West Yorks Reg., Royal Scots and HLI) I'm at a bit of an hiatus as where to go and get further info. Any ideas? Regards,Bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Pegram Posted 2 December , 2007 Author Share Posted 2 December , 2007 G'day Bob, I haven't had much experience in researching Tommies let alone Tommy POW, so I'm really not in a position to offer you much useful advice. My suggestion would be to have a look at 'The Long, Long Trail' icon in the top left of the screen and go from there. Sorry I cant be much help. Cheers, Aaron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Havrincourt Posted 2 December , 2007 Share Posted 2 December , 2007 Hello Aaron Just spotted your reply , Yes I do speak a Yorkshire type of French which includes lots of pointing and moving arms in the air..... I do get by though so should be ok, could you PM me the contacts, looks like it is worth a visit Cheers Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Johnson Posted 4 December , 2007 Share Posted 4 December , 2007 Roubaix, France, July 10, 1915. Sir, I have the honour to inform you that in accordance with your instructions, dated the 31st May, 1915, and received 1st July, 1915, I obtained permission yesterday morning from the German military authority to investigate the condition of the English prisoners of war in the citadel of Lille. The investigation was made yesterday afternoon, and I hereby submit a report of the same. In the first place, the citadel is only a temporary prison. The prisoners brought from the front are kept there one or two days at the most, before being sent to Germany. This is done in order to give them a little rest, as well as to arrange for their railroad transportation, for they are generally tired out when they arrive in Lille. The building in which prisoners are confined are over 200 years old, and no conveniences have been installed. However the place is clean and sanitary. There are no military prisoners in the citadel at present. The officers are quartered in separate rooms on the second storey, unless there is an unusually large number of them. In any case, each officer has a bed. The rooms are clean and there is sufficient furniture for the actual needs of prisoners. The private soldiers are put into large rooms, averaging about 15 feet square. Straw mattresses are provided for them. All the windows are barred, as a matter of military necessity. There are two small courts, one for the use of the officers and the other for the soldiers. Both officers and soldiers are allowed to walk about in their respective courts during the day. This is the only means of exercise they have. The food is plain, but wholesome, judging from what was shown. As there are no prisoners there just now, I could not learn what they thought of it. Three meals a day are given to all prisoners. Breakfast consists of coffee, tea, or cocoa and bread; dinner of soup, a piece of meat, vegetables and bread; and supper of bacon or eggs, bread and cheese. The prisoners are allowed to buy extra articles of food, tobacco, etc. in the Citadel canteen. There is a hospital adjoining the prison, where the sick prisoners are cared for. Every morning at 9 o’clock those who are sick can have medical attendance. The prisoners are not allowed to write letters in the citadel, but as they are only kept there such a short time, this would not seem to be a hardship. From what I saw and heard, there is no foundation for the charge that the prisoners undergo great hardships. The officer in charge afforded me every facility in making this inspection. I have etc, John J. C. Watson This may not seem much like the "black hole" but considering the date of inspection was before the reprisals started and there were no prisoners there at the time it may well have been almost a true reflection of actual conditions at the time. Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aaron Pegram Posted 5 December , 2007 Author Share Posted 5 December , 2007 Interesting Doug, did that come from the correspondence between HMG with the US ambasador series? I agree with what you say about the repraisals but I dont think our mate Watson is describing Fort MacDonald. Fort MacDonald (now known as Fort de Mons, or Fort of Mons-en-Baroeul) was not part of the same system of forts which comprised the Lille citadel. It was built between 1888 and 1890 as part of a system of fortifications to protect the border between France and Germany in the decades after the Franco-Prussian war, and lies about 3 kilometers outside the citadel walls which were built around 1670. This we can see in satelite images of the area, with the green dot being Fort MacDonald on the right and the star shaped citadel on the left. But the question becomes whether or not Fort MacDonald was recognised and considered independent from the other fortifications in the area. Having said that, Watson's description of the fort being about 200 years old seems is inconsistent, given that at the time of writing Fort MacDonald would have been 25 years old at best. Maybe he visited one of the citadel forts, Vauban perhaps. There are dozens of forts which comprised the citadel defences, and no doubt the Germans used them too, probably as barracks. I suspect the Germans took Watson to one of the better forts. That Watson was sent to Lille to investigate the conditions of British prisoners and saw none seems a little suspicious to me. I reckon we pack Andy off to Lille with some homework! Cheers, Aaron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Johnson Posted 5 December , 2007 Share Posted 5 December , 2007 Aaron, Yes, the report was from cd8108. Misc 19 (1915) Some of the PoW reports specifically mention the Citadel as being the place they were in during 1914, though whether this information was supplied by the PoWs or by the interviewer may be open to question ie did the PoWs actually know the location of where they were kept or did they just refer to it as a fort which the interviewers assumed mean the citadel? If the photograph in post 5 is of the Citadel then it was probably in use at least during the early part of the war. Was Ft MacDonald also in use at the same time? 2/Lt Allsop was at Lille in 1914 but was at the Université Catholique. See his report Here. (two of the other reports on Your Archives state the Citadel whilst one other states he was in a hospital there but did not name it) If I get the time I will hunt out some other reports that mention Lille. Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest armadaleanzac Posted 30 December , 2014 Share Posted 30 December , 2014 Gents, coming in late I'm not sure if my contribution will help or not. The following comes from the private diary of 6553 Pte Claude Robert Marsh of the 16th Battalion AIF who was one of many captured at 1st Bullecourt on April 11th 1917: After detraining they were paraded through the streets to a set of barracks (which they knew as Fort MacDonald) with cold floors that were wet. No blankets were provided, and they remained locked up there all of the next day, and again on Wednesday 18th April. During this time they were half starved, receiving only one slice of bread each day. Claude's diary is illustrative of the conditions: "The Fort is partly underground. 110 men in a room about 20 ft x 50 ft with three small windows at one end.A big barrel at one end the only toilet. It filled and overflowed on the floor. Was given cold coffee and pigwash soup of old mangols and swedes. Slept on old stone floor huddled together to try and keep warm. Was shut up for a week, only allowed out twice for about 5 minutes for fresh air." 5451 Pte John Francis Ullyott (16th Bn AIF) in his POW debrief commenting on his capture and subsequent treatment said that they were locked up in Fort Macdonald after being paraded through the town. Here he was one of 105 men crowded into one cell where they received very little food. The daily meal comprising one slice of black bread, two drinks of coffee, and about a gill of soup. The soup being water that dried vegetables had been boiled in to rehydrate them. Others in their POW debriefs also comment on the quality of treatment received at Fort Macdonald but not in a manner that would indicate its specific location. Hope that helps Linton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard L Posted 10 March , 2016 Share Posted 10 March , 2016 I interviewed Private Fred Williams who was with the 12th Gloucester's when captured on May 8th 1917. After about a week working behind the lines he with others was transferred to Lille and marched through the town. At Fort Macdonald they were informed it was a retaliation camp and kept 50 to a room with only one skylight and a water butt in the middle of the concrete floor. Food was one bowl of soup and a slice of bread. They were kept like this for 12 days, and on being let out many collapsed and their tongues were swollen from lack of water. He was then transferred to a registered camp at Dulmen. The fort iis now the HQ of the French Rapid Reaction Force but in the surrounding ditches there are memorials to those killed by the Germans in Wld.War 1 and 2. It is a recreation area for the people of Lille and includes a Zoo. It is a 20 minute walk from the centre of the town. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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