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WO2-Chevrons AIF


mctaz
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I understand that early in the War (in this case 1916) WO2's wore 4 inverted chevrons, as shown below.

But what are the others? Are they staff-sergeants? or CQMS or?

When did the crown replace the chevrons?

Jim

post-10363-1191928945.jpg

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In a pre war - about 1910-rank table the following British ranks are given

Crown in a laurel wreath Departmental Warrant Officer

Crown First Class Staff Sergeant Major

Four inverted chevrons surmounted by a Crown, Quartermaster Corporal Major

Four inverted chevrons surmounted by a eight pointed star Regimental Quartermaster Sergeant

Four inverted chevrons Quartermaster Sergeant

Three chevrons surmounted by a Crown, Company Sergeant Major

Three chevrons surmounted by crossed flags and a Crown Colour Sergeant

Incidentally nice photograph .Do you know which unit they are?

Greg

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Could be a battalion Sgts Mess group There is one Warrant Officer/ Ist Class Staff Sergeant Major, one Regimental Quartermaster Sergeant (both with Sam Brownes) then four Quartermaster Sergeants and then a number of Company Sergeant Majors. The numbers seem to match the four company organisation

Greg

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Thanks Greg, your info will help me identify the individuals who were:

HQ-

RSM: Warrant-Officer T. SELWYN

RQMS: Warrant-Officer L. W. BARNETT

Orderly-Room Sgt: Staff-Sergeant S.G.TAYLOR

------------------------------------------------------

A-Coy-

CSM: Sergeant-Major N.R. MEAGHER

CQMS: Quartermaster-Sergeant J.M. WILSON

------------------------------------------------------

B-Coy-

CSM: Sergeant-Major H.T. STEWART

CQMS: Quartermaster-Sergeant T.J. HORLER

-------------------------------------------------------

C-Coy-

CSM: Sergeant-Major C.W. BALDWIN

CQMS: Quartermaster-Sergeant G.E. LATHAM

------------------------------------------------------

D-Coy-

CSM: Sergeant-Major J.S. CRANSWICK

CQMS: Quartermaster-Sergeant E.A. HUTCHINSON

--------------------------------------------------------------

They were the SNCO's of 40th Battalion.

The RSM was Tom Selwyn, who would later be commissioned, go AWOL on a drinking spree & get kicked out of the battalion.

He took up a position in a Q-store somewhere in England but got caught flogging off stores to the value of 80'odd quid.

He was under investigation for a second similar charge at war's end but it was dropped!

Quite a fall from grace.

Cheers

Jim

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Hi Andrew,

From their records I'd say so and their addresses on enlistment reinforce this.

One of them claimed their father as Henry the other Harry, one of them claimed father as NOK the other the mother

Seems the father was in NZ?

This is J.S. front & centre.

post-10363-1191990312.jpg

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Thanks Jim

I was fortunate enough to read TG Cranswick's letters a few years back. Very interesting as they covered training and the war years. Can't recall if there was any mention of his brother, but no doubt there would have been if they were the same Company of the 40th.

Cheers

Andrew

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Andrew, were TG's letters in a private collection?

Did you know both brothers were commissioned?

J.S was one of the first casualties that the 40th sustained, he was killed on 13th January 1917 a few weeks after they entered the front line.

That may account for little or no mention of him in his brother's letters.

This is an excerpt from F.C Green's "The Fortieth"

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Our total casualties were two killed and eight wounded. 2/Lieut. J. S. Cranswick, who was killed, had just received his commission. He had been wounded on Gallipoli with the 12th Battalion, and had been Company Sgt.-Major of D Company in the 40th from the beginning. His death was an irreparable loss to his company.

His company commander, in writing of him afterwards, said, "Before the company saw fighting, some of the men had a grudge against him for hardness and severity as company sergt.-major. Directly we got into the line that was all forgotten, and within a week they thought nothing could be done right unless the sergt.-major had a hand in it. I never fell out with him but once, when he set out into No Man's Land at night in pursuit of a "Fritz" without warning anyone, and was nearly killed by our own bombers, and then he was so penitent I could not say much. I think he was the finest soldier I struck during the war".

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

post-10363-1192007028.jpg

This image is of T.G.

Cheers

Jim

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In a pre war - about 1910-rank table the following British ranks are given

Crown in a laurel wreath Departmental Warrant Officer

Crown First Class Staff Sergeant Major

Four inverted chevrons surmounted by a Crown, Quartermaster Corporal Major

Four inverted chevrons surmounted by a eight pointed star Regimental Quartermaster Sergeant

Four inverted chevrons Quartermaster Sergeant

Three chevrons surmounted by a Crown, Company Sergeant Major

Three chevrons surmounted by crossed flags and a Crown Colour Sergeant

Incidentally nice photograph .Do you know which unit they are?

Greg

Nice photograph, dreadful table to quote from! More errors than there are holes in my socks.

And another thing: it is quite wrong to assume that Australian practice followed British exactly.

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Here's another image, these blokes were formerly 12th Battalion hence the shoulder patches.

J.S. is on the right sitting.

Grumpy, can you tell us what the errors are in the table Greg quoted from?

Thanks

Jim

post-10363-1192008482.jpg

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The list is a muddle of badges/ranks/appointmets from different periods and different arms of service, such that it is difficult to know where to start.

The attached is from my notes and is 1914 ONLY, and INFANTRY ONLY. The titles RSM and RQMS and CSM and CQMS had only become necessary on the creation of the 4-company organisation,

Not until 1915 was an inferior grade of WO, the WO II, created.

post-894-1192009497.jpg

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Brilliant, well illustrated Grumpy!

Thanks for that

Cheers

Jim

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I should add that in each case the asterisk * signifies a change.

Out of interest, my notebooks contain the whole series from 1800 onwards. NOT our period, however.

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Hi Jim

Lt TG Cranswick's letters are in the archives of the Army Museum of WA.

Just after they were donated the Curator told me that the chap donating these letters had found them on the tip and thought they looked worth saving and so he gave them to the Museum.

It's horrible to think that there may have been other possesions of Cranswicks on the tip that have been lost. But the other question is how did Cranswick's war letters end up in WA? He died of his wounds in Tasmania shortly after the war and am far as I am aware all his relatives were in Tasmania or NZ at that time.

Perhaps one of the relatives moved to WA later or a militaria collecter died and an unthinking person chucked them away. But that's just guessing really.

I'll be on duty at the museum on sunday if you want any more info about these letters.

Cheers

Andrew

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Thanks Andrew, I'm very interested in the letters and anything else relating to the 40th.

Sounds like the museum are very lucky to have them.

Despite spending 4 years posted to WA I can't recall where the Museum is located, unless it's the one down in Freo?

I'll do a bit of research here in Tassie & see what I can dig up about the family.

Cheers

Jim

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Yep, it's been at the Artillery Barracks in Freo since 1995, prior to that it was located in East Perth.

It would be interesting to know if there still was family in Tasmania.

Cheers

Andrew

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