keggy65 Posted 4 October , 2007 Share Posted 4 October , 2007 John Reed very kindly posted a list of map references for me showing locations mentioned in the 8th SLI War Diary. I've followed the Diary to 28th April 1917 when the man I'm researching died (I've come to the conclusion this may have been at Railway Copse). I'd like to see this area "on the ground" as it were so has anyone got a trench map with locations I 7 b,d (Cuthbert Trench); I 2 C, 8A (Whip Trench) and 27 d (Railway Copse) that they could kindly let me see please? Regards, Mabel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 14 October , 2007 Share Posted 14 October , 2007 Railway Copse Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 14 October , 2007 Share Posted 14 October , 2007 Unfortunately I have problems identifying Cuthbert trench and Whip trench regards Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keggy65 Posted 14 October , 2007 Author Share Posted 14 October , 2007 Unfortunately I have problems identifying Cuthbert trench and Whip trench regards Tom Many thanks for this, Tom, very much appreciated. The list that John Reed kindly provided has given me I 7 b,d (Cuthbert Trench) and I 2C, 8A (Whip Trench) if it's any help - both from sheet 51BNW4. I'm really getting the 'bug' for looking at these maps! Must see if I can find a site that sells them - this Forum is not good news for my pocket! Mabel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 14 October , 2007 Share Posted 14 October , 2007 From 51bnw4 Fampoux From the same map 12c,8 regards Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnreed Posted 14 October , 2007 Share Posted 14 October , 2007 Mabel Here's Whip Trench. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keggy65 Posted 14 October , 2007 Author Share Posted 14 October , 2007 Tom and John Really pleased to have these - many, many thanks. Mabel Edit. John, I believe I can see Cuba Trench too (top left). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnreed Posted 14 October , 2007 Share Posted 14 October , 2007 Mabel I have search through my copies of that Map Sheet I have them from 020716 through to 080718 and cannot find Cuthbert Trench but looking at the names of the trenches I have come to the conclusion that it is part of the Front Line between Cash Alley and Claw Alley. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnreed Posted 14 October , 2007 Share Posted 14 October , 2007 Mabel You can see the detail printed on the map, the difference in just a few months. One thing I fouind there is a Cutlet Trench which is on Map Sheet 51BNW47A- 080718 Could there have been some confusion between Cuthbert and Cutlet? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
towisuk Posted 14 October , 2007 Share Posted 14 October , 2007 Sorry, misread the I as a 1, my mistake regards Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keggy65 Posted 14 October , 2007 Author Share Posted 14 October , 2007 John Just to put it in context (reading from the April 1917 War Diary) - "Operations, April 28th 1917. The 8th Bn Somerset Light Infantry under Captain M K F Saunders moved forward from HERON TRENCH (H 11 a.) and took up position in CUBA TRENCH I 7 s at 3am 28/4/17. At Zero hour (4-25am) the Battalion followed the Barrage due east to CUTHBERT TRENCH where 2nd Lt F R Cooksley with 13 men was dropped to mop up and consolidate. Then finding WHIP TRENCH (I 2.c) in front, the troops swung to the left to attach it. Finding no opposition, it was impossible to check their onward rush, which carried them in a North Easterly direction as far as RAILWAY COPSE. Returning wounded reported that there was no opposition and they were condident that the village of FRESNES could have been easily taken had there been a few more troops. Consolidation of WHIP TRENCH was at once proceeded with by the mixed collection of Somersets, Bedfords, etc., Many of those who swept on returned and joined the party in WHIP TRENCH. The position was not modified by noon. At about (blank) the 112 Bde left WHIP TRENCH and apparently vacated the areas "I" altogether. This left 2nd Lt F R Cooksley with a party of 50 in CUTHBERT TRENCH in an isolated position. At 11 a.m. 2 Coys of Middlesex made efforts to reach him but in my opinion, they, owing to the left, where they encountered machine gun fire, were unable to get forward." I've quoted all of this just to put it in context. The mentions of Cuthbert Trench are quite clear but there is no map reference given so it's a puzzle and your interpretation may well be accurate, I just can't tell. Your efforts are truly appreciated, thank you. Mabel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keggy65 Posted 14 October , 2007 Author Share Posted 14 October , 2007 John Having looked at and tried to follow the 'action' on the last two maps you posted together with that quote from the diary that I've just posted, I have to say that, to a complete novice, "Cutlet" would seem to make sense - especially if you add in the location of Railway Copse. I'm not confident enough, though, to make a definite judgement. Mabel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnreed Posted 15 October , 2007 Share Posted 15 October , 2007 Mabel I have done a bit more taken from your narative. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keggy65 Posted 16 October , 2007 Author Share Posted 16 October , 2007 Mabel I have done a bit more taken from your narative. John John - that is fantastic - many, many thanks indeed. (Do you think it feasible that, because things were moving so quickly, that the trench name could have been misinterpreted/misheard - I don't know how communications to the Bttn were made but the route would certainly seem to match the diary entries.) Thanks again. Mabel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnreed Posted 16 October , 2007 Share Posted 16 October , 2007 Mabel Nearly all information would be passed by runners could be written or verbal which could explain the difference in names. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keggy65 Posted 5 November , 2007 Author Share Posted 5 November , 2007 John Thought I'd update this thread. I went to the IWM (Duxford) yesterday and was leafing through a 'Photos of WW1' book in the shop when I came across a photo with the caption: "Artillery Observation Officers of 12th Division, one using a periscope, direct fire from the edge of Cuthbert crater, 3 kilometers (2 miles) northeast of Arras, April 1917. Field telephonists relayed messages to the guns along cables which were vulnerable to enemy shellfire and simple accident." (Not sure about copyright so haven't attached the photo.) Mabel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
torlift Posted 10 July , 2009 Share Posted 10 July , 2009 I have a trench map with CUTHBERT on it, kindly given by another user of this site. It's difficult to place it exactly but it's certainly in the general area of what is suggested above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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