Air combat near Romani June 1916

[stevenbecker]

Mates,

I was wondering if you can give the British Aircraft and possible crew during this fight.

From a personal Diary soldier mentions seeing this fight over head.

This is a question posted on another site:

"At Romani on 28th June they saw for the first time a dogfight between a Turkish “Taube” and one of their own “scouting planes”. So new was aerial warfare to Ewen (and of course to to everyone else) that in his letter home to his sister Nell he struggled to find words to describe the exciting event that they had just witnessed. The enemy plane was almost certainly not a “Taube” as Taube monoplanes were used by the Germans only in the very earliest months of the war and by mid 1916 they were so obsolete that they were no longer used operationally. Ewen was uncertain whether he should call them “airaplanes”, “battle planes” or “scouting planes”, but he was clearly enthralled by what he had just seen. In a letter home to his sister Nell he described this exciting event as follows:"

My reseaching has found this from the AFC site;

"The Air Battle over Palestine as told in the Kriegs-Chronik der Leipziger Neuesten Nachrichten. January 1916 - December 1916.

"On the 28th of June, the Rumpler crew of Euringer and Berthold had an engagement with an RFC aircraft. After a 15 minute fight the RFC aircraft broke off and dove away. The Rumpler had 12 holes in it's fabric".

This shows the German aircraft in detail but I can find no referece to the British plane, any ideas?

Cheers

S.B

[domsim]

Hi Steve

I have the following from 'Winged Promises: A history of No.14 Squadron,RAF 1915-1945' by V. Orange & Lord Deramore.

5th wing made up of nos 14, 17, 30 & 31 squadrons was based at Ismailia in February 1916. 'C' flight of 14 squadron at El Kantara. From February-June 1916 it raided important oases such as Bir el Abd and Bir el Mazar along the route from Romani to El Arish with BE.2c's. A combined 14 and 17 squadron raid was carried out on the german airfield at el-Arish on 18th June 1916 all Be.2c's.

On balance your action is likely to have involved a BE.2c of either 14 or 17 Squadrons, most likely one of 'C' flight 14 squadron's BE2c's. I am going to kew in the next couple of weeks and if no one else comes up with anything I shall have a look in the war diaires and let you know.

Cheers

Dominic

[centurion]

Although in 1916 there were no Taubes in the Turkish service, Fokker Monoplanes were being used. Aircraft recognition skills were not advanced in the forces and for quite a while any enemy monoplane was labled a Taube. Rumplers in servive in the ME at the time were the C1 biplane, I've never heard of a biplane being mistaken for a Taube - so its possible we have two different engagements on the same date. The Rumplers in use in this theatre at this time tended not to be fitted with a forward firing machine gun whereas the Fokker E monoplanes did and would be much more suited to intercept attacking aircraft.

[domsim]

Fliegerabteilung 300 was initially equipped with 6 Rumpler C.I biplanes and one Pfalz E.I monoplane (known as 'Kathe') from April 1916.The Pflaz was damaged in the air raid I mentioned on the 18th June 1916 along with 2 Rumplers destroyed.

6 new Rumplers and 2 Fokker E.III's arrived in mid september 1916.

I understood that the term 'Taube' was simply used as a generic term by the British to describe any German plane early in the war, regardless of whether it was a monoplane or biplane.

Cheers

Dominic

[centurion]

The Pfalz E1 looked very similar to the Fokker E1 being a licensed copy of a Morane Sauliner design (whereas the Fokker was essentially an unlicensed copy) although it had a wooden airfame and not tube steel as on the Fokker. Again looking at early accounts of the war in the air Taube appears to be used as a generic 'enemy monoplane' even though there was considerable difference between the Taubes built by different companies. I've never seen it applied to a biplane which had a tendency to get called Albatross whichever firm actually produced them. I'd be interested to see if any one out there has found specific examoples of Taube being applied to biplanes.

[stevenbecker]

Mates,

Thankyou any confirmed ID on the British plane would help.

As to the generic term Taube, I agree all AIF accounts not to mention British during the war in the desert all discribe any German air craft as a "Taube" weather its a Taube a rumpler or an Abertross.

There was no such thing as air ID in those days so don't get hung up on a private soldier saying its a Taube. Very much like the Germans in WWII saying its a "Jabo" to any allied plane.

I sure German reports are correct that the plane was a Rumpler on recon.

Dominic, yes please if possible could you ID the crew.

Cheers and thankyou all.

S.B

[centurion]

As to the generic term Taube, I agree all AIF accounts not to mention British during the war in the desert all discribe any German air craft as a "Taube" weather its a Taube a rumpler or an Abertross.

Is it possible to quote some examples please?

[michaeldr]

I am sure that Steve has other examples but here is one that I know of

two accounts of the same action on 16 Sept 1915

The first one is British and refers to a Taube and the second one is Turkish which details 6 planes but no Taube

16th September, 1915. Imbros. We had quite a lively morning here. At 7.30 an enemy's biplane dropped four bombs on our Headquarters camp and got away with hardly a shot fired at it. At 7.50 an enemy's Taube came over and dropped bombs near my Signal Tent, also a little summer shower of small steel darts: five men were wounded. At 8.10 a.m. yet another enemy biplane circled round but was kept at a respectful distance by the ship's guns

16th: 3 Rumplers, 2 Gotha WD.1's and 1 Albatros C.I; bom­bing attack on Imbros

I agree that the use of the name Taube to describe 'enemy' aircraft seems to have been common and indiscriminate

regards

Michael

[centurion]

I think your example actually supports my case in that the person reporting specifically distinguishes between biplanes and a Taube. That they may have mistakenly identified one of the biplanes for a Taube is another matter

[stevenbecker]

Mate,

This is just one of many examples;

From the 9th ALHR History page 95

" On the 8th (Oct 1917) two taubes flew over the lines with the evident intention of bombing . Splendid shooting on the part of our AA gunners resaulted in one of them being shot down".

Another account in "One Airmans war" of the same event;

" Early this morning four Bristol fighters started patroling in pairs when two enemy fighters went out to engage them, driving one scout down in our lines and the other down in enemy lines."

These accounts refers to the shoting down of ObLt Dittmar of FA 300 who was in fact brought down by Lt Steele and Williams in Bristol fighter,

Dittmar's planes was a Albatross (D 636) and there are many photos of this plane which was captured intake.

The AIF tended to call all German aircraft as a Taube as I said and made no distention between one or two wings or if it was a Taube, a rampler or a Albatross.

S.B

[Adrian Roberts]

....whereas the Germans tended to refer to all British Tractor Biplanes such as the BE2c as "Bristols", and pushers were either "Vickers" or "Lattice-tails". Later in the war, all single-seaters tended to be "Sopwiths" even if they were SE5as.

[domsim]

Hi Steve

Finally got to Kew: the 5th Wing war diary lists the combat of 28th June 1916 as involving a De Havilland DH1a of 14 Squadron flown by 2/Lt A.S. McLaren with 2/Lt. E.L.Roberts as observer.

They were scrambled from Kantara on receipt of a hostile aircraft warning and were involved in a running fight as far as Bir al Abd where the British aircraft gave up due to damage sustained. It made a forced landing at Mehemedia. Hostile is identified as an Aviatik in the report but this seems to have been a common misidentification at the time.

Can send you images of war diary and letter of congrats from commander of 5th wing if you want it.

Cheers

Dominic

[stevenbecker]

Dom,

Many thanks for chasing this down. I'll pass it on to the bloke in NZ after this.

Its amazing how we can how track down the crews of both these aircraft in so small an action so many years ago.

Cheers

S.B

[stevenbecker]

Mates,

I was wondering if you may have anything on the german crew.

"the Rumpler crew of Euringer and Berthold "

Cheers

S.B