Arthur Maddock JONES, Royal Welsh Fusiliers & RAMC

[medicorps]

I have the September 1916 wedding certificate of an Arthur Maddock JONES, Lieutenant, R.A.M.C. (T) resident at the Royal Herbert Hospital Woolwich.

On the Medals Index I found an Arthur Maddock JONES a Captain in the Royal Welsh Fusiliers moving to the Royal Army Medical Corp, becoming an acting Lietenant Colonel.

Gallipoli 6 - 8 - 15 is shown under theatre of war. In the rubber stamped area for medals seems to be the word 'EMBLEMS' which could mean he was mentioned in dispatches?

I have searched for his service record without luck, I was hoping to confirm the person on the medal card was the same as on the marriage certificate.

I can't seem to find any reference to his army number on the card, as an officer is it likely a person's background would be in the War Diaries or Despatches?

It appears a trip to Kew is required is it easy to locate a person within the Medal Rolls?

I should point out I don't know what a regiment, battalion or division is, and find it rather confusing.

Thanks for any help or advice.

[BJanman]

Hi

There is only one Arthur Maddock Jones in the Medical Directories. He is listed as a Lt serving in the RAMC in the 1918 Directory and a Capt in the 1921 Directory. Also, the 1921 Directory states he was entitled to the 1914-15 Star and was Mentioned in Despatches. In 1945, he is listed as a Maj serving in the TA

There are two 'Jones A M' listed in the 1918 Army List as serving with the RAMC and there is another A M Jones in the Medical Directories - t/Capt Archibald Mason Jones. So there is a strong possibility that your two references are for the same man.

There is no mention of him serving in the Royal Welsh Fusiliers but he may have served with them as a Medical Officer.

As an officer, he will not have a service number but it is possible (and it is only a possibility) that he may be mentioned in a war diary. It will not tell you anything about his background though and you will need to find out who he served with to know which diary he will be in. I do not know anything about the Royal Welsh Fusiliers but there was Welsh medical units serving in Gallipoli. They were No 53 Welsh Casualty Clearing Station, and the 1/1st Welsh Field Ambulance, the 1/2nd Welsh Field Ambulance and the 1/3rd Welsh Field Ambulance - all of which served with the 53rd Welsh Division.

Hope this helps

Barbara

[linge]

There are a number of Gazette entries for Arthur Maddock Jones:

5th Aug 1910

7th (Merioneth and Montgomery) Battalion, The Royal Welsh Fusiliers: Arthur Maddock Jones to be Second Lieutenant. Dated 24th May 1910

16th June 1916

ROYAL ARMY MEDICAL CORPS

Wessex Casualty Clearing Station

Arthur Maddock Jones late Capt., Roy. Welsh Fus., to be Lt 17th June 1916

7th September 1928

Dissolution of partnership announcement between Arthur Lewis Davies of Bala in the Co of Merioneth and Arthur Maddock Jones of "Tawelfan", Bain carrying on business as General Medical Practitioners at Bala

29th April 1930

Factory Department, Home Office, April 25th 1930

Chief Inspector of Factories has appointed Dr. A. Maddock Jones to be Certifying Surgeon under the Factory and Workshop Acts for the Llandudno District of County Caernarvon

22nd July 1938

Dissolution of partnership announcement Arthur Maddock Jones and partners carrying on business of Medical Practitioners at 6, North Parade, Llanduno Co Caaernavon, and "Linden Lea", Mostyn Avenue, Llanduno. (Drs Maddock Jones, Rhydderch and MacEwan)

15th January 1943

Dissolution of partnership notice re above Maddock Jones and MacEwan at both addresses in above notice

19th October 1943

Workmen' Compensation Act, 1925

The Secretary of State for the Home Department has appointed Arthur Maddock Jones, Esq MRCS, LRCP of 6, North Parade, Llandudno, to be a Medical Referee under the above Act for the County Districts of Bangor; Conway; Llanduno and Colwyn Bay; and Llanrwst (Circuit No 29)

Whitehall SW1

19th October 1943

25th July 1961

Notice re claims on Estate

Dr Arthur Maddock-Jones

Oakley

6, North Parade

Llanduno

Caenarvonshire

Medical Practitioner

Died 24th June 1961

The Only death I could find in the death indices to correspond with above was:

June Qtr 1961 Arthur M. Jones (aged 72) Holborn RD (threfore b circa 1889)

Regards

Pam

[linge]

I have searched the Birth Indices around 1889 and this could be his birth:

Mar Qtr 1889, Arthur Madoc Jones, Ffestiniog RD

This looks like the family on 1901 Census

Isalt, Festiniog, Merionethshire (RG13/5258, Folio 45, Page 10)

Richard Jones, Head, 43, Surgeon, Caenarvon Bangor

Mary W Jones, Wife, 38, Middlesex London

Arthur M Jones, Son, 12, Merioneth Festiniog

Dorothy K Jones, Dau, 8, Merioneth Festiniog

Richard G Jones, Son, 6, Merioneth Festiniog

Eryl W Jones, Son, 9m, Merioneth Festiniog

His parents were probably Richard Jones and Mary Walsh Williams married Mar Qtr 1888 Carnarvon RD

Regards

Pam

[linge]

1915 Army List has the following:

Royal Welsh Fusiliers

7th (Merioneth and Montgomery Battalion) (Territorial)

Captains

Jones, A. M. 26th October, 1914

Regards

Pam

[Stebie9173]

Continuing the Gazette entries:

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...;selHonourType=

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...;selHonourType=

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...;selHonourType=

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...;selHonourType=

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveVi...;selHonourType=

Steve.

[medicorps]

Thank you to Barbara, Pam and Steve for your time and responses. I'm amazed at how much information you've obtained in such a short time.

I forgot to include the groom's age, which in September 1916 was 27. Also his father is shown as Richard Jones, Medical Practioner. Therefore the 1901 Census entry could well be who I am looking for.

All the information provided is extremely useful and may explain certain matters.

As I said before I know very little about Army matters and wondered in 1910 could a 2nd Lieutenant be aged 21 ?

Also is a 2nd Lieutenant below a Captain, sorry to ask such naive questions.

Again thanks to everyone for your help, it looks like a trip to Wales could be in the offing to confirm I have find the correct Arthur Maddock JONES.

[linge]

Here is the family in the 1891 Census

Brgmanian, Church St, Ffestinog, Merioneth (RG12/4646, Folio 89, Page 2)

Dr Richard Jones, Head, 33, MBCM RE Practitioner, Caernarvon ?

Mary Walsh Jones, Wife, 29, Middlesex London

Arthur Madock Jones, Son, 2, Merioneth Festiniog

Elizabeth Henrietta Baker, Niece, 18, Middlesex London

A Second Lieutenant is below a Captain.

He could be a Second Lieutenant at 21.

7th (Merioneth and Montgomery) Battalion was a Territorial Battalion. So Local to the area where he lived which fits with the details of the family being from Merionethshire.

Regards

Pam

[linge]

As he was a local doctor and we believe he died on 24th June 1961 and came fron Llandudno maybe the Llandudno Library would be able to check if there was an obituary in the newspaper at the time of his death. This may give you additional details.

Details of the library:

Llandudno Library

Mostyn Street

Llandudno

LL30 2RP

Tel: 01492 574010 / 574020

Fax: 01492 876826.

Email: llyfr.lib.llandudno@conwy.gov.uk

Community Librarian: Sharon Morgan

Librarian: Sheila Evans

Pam

[Muerrisch]

Looks like a second case of a doctor/ soldier with RWF associations [Dr Dunn was the other in mind].

I have a problem however with when Jones studied and qualified. Born 1889, so say 18 in 1907, but commissioned in [part time admittedly] TF as an infantry officer in 1910 when he was /should have been studying for his basic qualifications, but is fully qualified and transfers to RAMC in 1916 .... by modern standards that would be a bit tight but I believe feasible. Doctor in the house to comment, please?

[clive_hughes]

Looks like a second case of a doctor/ soldier with RWF associations [Dr Dunn was the other in mind].

I have a problem however with when Jones studied and qualified. Born 1889, so say 18 in 1907, but commissioned in [part time admittedly] TF as an infantry officer in 1910 when he was /should have been studying for his basic qualifications, but is fully qualified and transfers to RAMC in 1916 .... by modern standards that would be a bit tight but I believe feasible. Doctor in the house to comment, please?

How about a third notable example - Capt. John Fox Russell, Holyhead-born doctor (University of London 1909) who starts off as a 6th RWF Territorial officer during 1913-15, transfers to RAMC 1916, is posted back to his old battalion as its MO in Palestine and wins an MC and posthumous VC 1917 aged 24.

LST_164

[BJanman]

I would also like to thank Pam and Steve for their search through the Gazette, has helped me loads.

I have now managed to trace him in the Lancet - June 24, 1916, which states "Wessex Casualty Clearing Station: A. M. Jones, late Captain, Royal Welsh Fusiliers, to be Lieutenant." Excellent, I can add him to my database.

I started reading a bit before and by the 8th April 1916 there was a big call for Doctors to enlist from the War Office. By May 6th the Central Medical War Committee stated that a considerable number of medical men was required at once for service in the Royal Army Medical Corps. A letter addressed to the Lancet reads "During the next few weeks the course of events seems certain to lead to renewed fighting, to very many casualties, and to a call for more and more doctors to tend the sick and wounded." I wonder if Arthur Maddock Jones responded to this? In any event, it is interesting reading.

Cheers

Barbara

[medicorps]

Thanks again for your kind help.

Pam congratulations, I went through pages of A to Arthur Jones trying to find him on the census and failed.

Is it worth me contacting the RAMC museum at Reading or try and locate the records of the Royal Herbert Hospital at Woolwich?

What is the Army List and where can it be found?

When I clicked on the Gazette links and tried a search it only had available from 1998 - 2007, is it a subscription service?

The only facts I know are that a photo of his future wife appeared in the Daily Mirror in November 1915. By amazing coincidence next to her picture is one of members of the RAMC transporting the wounded to a field hospital in Gallipoli.

His wife who came with her family from Russia in 1914 seems to have been a bit of a character. According to the 1930 naturalization papers of one of her brothers she had moved to South America. I thought with her husband, but checking the document again the line "with her husband Maddoc Jones, an Englishman" has been crossed out. Which leads me to believe she went on her own or with someone else!?!?

As A M Jones seems quite prominent in the community hopefully I can find a wedding notice or an obituary to confirm if this Arthur Maddock Jones is the one on the marriage certificate.

[Stebie9173]

Here's the Gazette search page:

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveSearch.asp?webType=0

They are about to upgrade the page so hopefully it will still be there!

Some of the links on thios page will refer to him:

http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/archiveSe...p;selHonorType=

Steve.

[medicorps]

Thankyou Steve for the links, extremely useful.

Have discovered a family bankruptcy in the 1930's and a name change in the 1960's.

[photonphil]

The RAMC have a peculiar rank structure in that the only officers who are 2nd Lts are medical sudents.

All quailified doctors are Lts or above, this heightened rank structure may have been to create status.

Today any soldiers commisioned in the RAMC are commisioned at Lts also so it is not just doctors.

Therefore being a 2nd Leuy he would have been either a doctor who chose not to be commisioned initialy as one but transfered when he was found out.

Or he was a final year Medical student hence 2nd lt. and once qualified got his promotion.

Since the RAMC are the most decorated corps in the British Army 32VCs and two of them plus bar, it is a common practice that every regiment or corp claims their awards as one of their own. We are just stupid being non combatants you forget the enemy dont care about the Geniva convention thats why so many of my kindred do such stupid things like marching out into nomans land to bring back casualties and end up being called brave!

[Muerrisch]

Have a care: it may be current practice as you describe, but was it in 1914-1918?

[medicorps]

There was a query when Aurthur Maddock Jones may have trained, in the Medical Registar of 1916 is the following:-

Arthur Maddock Jones, Isallt Blaenau Festiniog

Reg: 1916 May 1 E

M.R.C.S. Eng 1916 L.R.C.P. Lond. 1916

From the Times Digital Archive:-

Jan 9th 1933

A Major A. Maddock Jones is shown as attending a service dinner of the 9th Battalion, The Border Regiment.

Sep 7th 1938

Dr. Maddock Jones attended the funeral of Colnel The Hon. Henry Lloyd-Mostyn, who commanded 17th Battalion, The Royal Welch Fusiliers.

Nov 15th 1961

Details of Dr. Arthur Maddock Jones of North Parade, Llandudno will and estate are given.

Jun 3rd 1939

Dr. A. Maddock Jones was involved in a attempt to save men from the submarine 'THETIS'.

The times also carried in 1936 a marriage annoucement, Dr. A. Maddock-Jones eldest son of the late Dr. and Mrs. Richard Jones of Llandudno.

Currently I haven't found details of a previous marriage or divorce, which makes me wonder if I have the correct Arthur Maddock Jones. Hopefully the 1936 marriage certificate will give a clue and possiblylocal newspapers.

[Muerrisch]

I have feeling we know more about him than he knew himself!

Thanks to all.

[medicorps]

I have been sent a copy of an obituary from the North Wales Weekly News June 29 1961 for Dr Arthur Maddock Jones, who died aged 73 on a visit to London a year after retiring as a doctor. Unfortunately there is no mention of any marriages.

Of his service career it states,

He saw active service in both world wars as a major in the R.A.M.C. He was was awarded the Territoral Decoration and was a member of the British Legion.

[medicorps]

Update: The marriage certificate for the 1936 wedding announced in the Times confirms the Richard Maddock Jones on the medal card is the same one as on the 1916 wedding certificate.

Thanks to everyone for your help, very much appreciated.

[medicorps]

Thank you to everyone who answered my queries most helpful. Here is a list of some the events I've found so far relating to his involvement with the army. Trust this is of use to someone.

Monday 01 Aug 1910

University Intelliegence

Second Examination for Medical Degrees- Part 1

The following pass lists have been issued

Organic and Applied Chemistry

A. M. Jones, Charing Cross Hptl

(Source: The Times)

5 August 1910

7th (Merioneth & Montgomery) Battalion, The Royal Welsh Fusiliers;

Arthur Maddock Jones to be Second Lieutenant. Dated 24th May 1910.

(Source: London Gazette)

Dated 18th July, 1913

7th (Merioneth & Montgomery) Battalion, The Royal Welsh Fusiliers.

The undermentioned Second Lieutenants to be Lieutenants:—

Arthur M. Jones.

(Source: London Gazette)

26 Oct 1914

1915 Royal Welsh Fusiliers, 7th Merioneth and Montgomery Battalion (Territotal) Captain: Jones, A. M.

(Source: Great War Forum/1915 Army List)

6 Aug 1915

Theatre of War: Gallipoli

(Source: Medal Card)

17 June 1916

INFANTRY - Welsh Fus.

Capt. A. M. Jones resigns his cominn.

(Source: London Gazette)

17 June 1916

ROYAL ARMY MEDICAL CORPS.

Wessex Casualty Clearing Station.

Arthur Maddock Jones, late C'apt., Roy. Welsh Fus., to be Lt.

(Source: London Gazette)

1st Dec. 1916

TERRITORIAL FORCE - ROYAL ARMY MEDICAL CORPS.

Lt. A. M. Jones to be Capt.

(Source: London Gazette)

1917

Jones Arthur Maddock, Isalt Blaenau Festiniog

Reg: 1916 May 1 E M.R.C.S. Eng 1916 LRCP Lond. 1916

(Source: Medical Directories)

30th Apr. 1919

ROYAL ARMY MEDICAL CORPS.

Capt. A. M. Jones to be actg. Maj. whilst specially empld.

(Source: London Gazette)

11 May 1920

ROYAL ARMY MEDICAL COUPS.

The announcements regarding Capt. (actg. Maj.) A. M. Jones which appeared in the Gazette of 29th Oct. and 5th Dec. 1919 are cancelled

Capt. (actg. Maj.) A. M. Jones to be actg. Lt.-Col. whilst specially empld. 9th July 1919.

Capt. (actg. Lt.-Col.) A. M. Jones relinquishes the actg. rank of Lt.-Col. on ceasing to be specially empld. 2nd Oct. 1919

(Source: London Gazette)

1921

Captain shown entitled to the 1914-15 Star & Mentioned in Despatches

(Source: Great War Forum/Medical Directories)

31 Oct 1922

15 Star, British Emblems

(Source: Medal Card)

1945

Listed as a Major serving in the Territoral Army

(Source: Great War Forum/Medical Directories)

Died 24th June 1961

(Source London Gazette)

29 June 1961

Former resident casualty officer at Charing Cross Hospital.

Awarded the Territorial Decoration and was a member of the British Legion.

(Source: North Wales Weekly News)

[medicorps]

Here is the Medal Card of Arthur Maddock Jones, next to his firstnames appears to be 6m 7d Amb.

Would this be 6 months 7 days Ambulance?

[clive_hughes]

To me it looks more like 6th. Fd. (i.e. Field) Amb.(ulance); Wx. for Wessex instead of 6th would be an alternative, given your other posts, but maybe that's wishful thinking?

Try enlarging the downloaded image and see what it looks like then.

LST_164

[medicorps]

Thank you for the suggestion.

It does look like it is 'Fd' (See the F of Fuss.) what is before the Fd is impossible to read from the downloaded image. There also appears to be some figures above 'R.W. Fuss.'