215 Sqdn, Independent Air Force, Xaffevillers, Casualty

[Archer]

I last posted this query in 2004 and 2006 but haven't got anywhere with it yet. Perhaps there are new forum members around who can help us ?

Situation

83051 AM3 Andrew Beattie Emslie, RAF, 215 Sqdn, Independent Air Force, Xaffevillers, was admitted to No. 8 Canadian Stationary Hospital with gunshot wounds to the head, chest and left arm on 22 August 1918.

He nearly died. He told his daughter many years later that he was shot down, the pilot killed. He hated the Air Force. Never wore his medals.

Problem

215 Squadron was a heavy bomber unit armed with Handley Page 0/400 bombers. It didn't lose a plane on the night of 21/22 August 1918.

The RAF museum could find no record of Emslie's wounding.

But he WAS wounded. His personal record confirms it. He was badly hurt, discharged unfit for further service on 17 January 1919 and awarded the King's Silver War Badge for the disabled. And his grateful country gave him a pension of 27 shillings and six pence a week for 52 weeks!!

Soon afterwards he emigrated to South Africa.

Question

So who shot him, and why?

William

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Have you read the squadron history or the combat reports? The following is at Kew:

AIR 1/1228/204/5/2634 Combat reports: 215 Squadron. Aug. 1918

[per ardua per mare per terram]

27 shillings and six pence a week for 52 weeks That was a lot of money, don't forget that basic pay for a private was 1 shilling a day. The highest daily rate for a naval technical non commissioned officer was 7 shillings and six pence and an Air Man 3rd class would have earned considerably less than 3 shillings 11 pence a day! Plus he would have got his war gratuity added to that. At least 2 years worth if I calculate correctly. Rent for a working class house had been 7 shillings and six pence a week.

[Archer]

Riddled with bullets and awarded seventy one pounds ten shillings - no ration allowance, no clothing allowance, no accomodation for yourself, wife and bairn.

Rather you than me, mate.

Anyway who shot him ? Where, and why ?

[Archer]

AIR 1/1228/204/5/2634 Combat reports: 215 Squadron. Aug. 1918

Thanks General! That's a good tip.

Unfortunately I'm in South Africa ... so ... not easy to get hold of. I did go through the casualty returns some years back and couldn't find him.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Riddled with bullets and awarded seventy one pounds ten shillings - no ration allowance, no clothing allowance, no accomodation for yourself, wife and bairn.

Rather you than me, mate.

I would rather not be in the situation, but please put it into context, there was no Welfare State, but it was more than disability pensions that I have seen awarded for men that were gassed. What ration allowance? Clothing allowance, why? This was the era of the 30 shillings suit. Didn't he have accomodation before he joined up? I repeat thet he was given more in his disability pension than he earned in the service. You haven't added in his War gratuity.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

not easy to get hold of.

Then you will need a look up or a researcher. If the RAF Museum cannot help, maybe the records do not exist.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Some contemporary price comparisons for 1921-30 drawn from Dr Harold Priestley, 'the what it cost the day before yesterday book,' (Kenneth Mason, Havant, 1979).

Pint of beer 6d (2 1/2p); so he could get 20 pints for 10 shillings.

Cigarettes 20 for 1s (5p); 200 for 10 shillings.

Oak parquet flooring 5s/6d (27 1/2p) per square yard; not quite 2 square yards/metres for 10 shillings.

Ton of coal 30s (£1.50).

I am not sure of the war gratuity amounts for the RAF, here's a thread where it was covered for the Navy.

 

 

[Archer]

maybe the records do not exist

There is very little evidence - I have been unable to find a reference to his squadron suffering losses on the date on which he was wounded.

But as I said above Elmslie was wounded. His personal record confirms the story he told his daughter - at least in so far as his injuries are concerned.

Under what circumstances could an AM3 have been taken up ... and into harm's way?

Would a 'friendly fire' episode or even a deadly criminal assualt have been swept under the carpet ?

Cheers!

William

P.S. Herewith a picture of Andrew in RNAS uniform. He joined the RNAS as an Air Mechanic 2nd class on 30 May 1917.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

A plane could be shot at without being lost and his wounds are consistant with having been shot, but he doesn't appear to have crash injuries. The front air gunner's turret is very exposed on an Handley Page 0/400, being shot there would not affect the integrity of the plane. I would assume that he was a gunner, isn't his trade recorded on his RAF service record?

I am surprised that he was in the RNAS as his service number is an RFC one and I can't find him amongst the online seaman's registers.

[MikeW]

try these at the National Archives, all from the 215 Squadron section:

AIR 1/1946/204/249/1 Record book. 1918 Apr. - June

AIR 1/1946/204/249/2 Operation orders: 54 and 83 Wing. 1918 July - Nov.

AIR 1/1946/204/249/3 Bomb raid and orders, also Intelligence reports. 1918 July - Aug.

AIR 1/1946/204/249/4 Bomb raid reports. 1918 Sept. - Nov.

AIR 1/1947/204/249/5 Bomb raid reports and Intelligence reports. 1918 Apr. - Nov.

AIR 1/1947/204/249/6 Recommendations for honours and awards. 1918 July - Nov.

AIR 1/1947/204/249/7 Particulars of officers and flying times. 1918 Apr. -

At least the bomb raid reports should outline which crews were flying which missions and whether they came under any form of attack.

Mike

[Archer]

he doesn't appear to have crash injuries

That's a good point and an important clue. Thank you.

Andrew Beattie Emslie

Born 26 June 1881

Mobilised and enlisted for the duration of the war in the Royal Naval Air Service as Air Mechanic, 2nd class, number 83051 [or is this his RAF number?], 30 May 1917

Posted to 13 Training School

Transferred to the newly-established Royal Air Force as Air Mechanic, 3rd class, 1 April 1918

Posted to 215 Squadron, RAF, 7 June 1918

Crosses to France on the strength of 215 Squadron, July 1918

215 Squadron proceeded to Alquines Aerodrome, 4 July 1918

The squadron, which was now equipped with ten Handley Page 0/400 four-engined heavy bombers, came under the command of 54 Wing, RAF, and was employed on night bombing operations

Emslie is admitted to 58 Casualty Clearing Station suffering with influenza, 7 July 1918

Discharged to duty, 13 July 1918

215 Squadron moved to Xaffevillers under command of the Independent Air Force, 19 August 1918

Two nights after moving to Xaffevillers, 215 Squadron was ready to continue operations, achieving a very successful raid on Folpersweiler Aerodrome, dropping over 6 tons of bombs from altitudes varying from 400 feet to 3 000 feet and causing enormous damage (History of 215 Squadron in PRO Air 1/184/15/218/1)

Emslie is wounded, 21/22 August 1918

Admitted to No. 8 Canadian Stationary Hospital with gunshot wounds to the head, chest and left arm, 22 August 1918

Struck off patient strength, 8 Canadian Stationary Hospital, and transferred to Base, with severe gunshot wounds to the head, right chest and left arm, 9 September 1918

Admitted to No. 12 General Hospital, with multiple wounds, 11 September 1918

Returned to England aboard HM Hospital Ship Western Australia, 14 September 1918

Admitted to No. 2 Southern General Hospital, Bristol, with severe wounds, 15 September 1918

Struck off strength, 215 Squadron, 15 September 1918

Discharged from the Royal Air Force, unfit, 17 January 1919

Emslie was given a character of 'very good', trade qualification of 'Rigger Aero', and a proficiency rating of 'satisfactory.' He gave his address on discharge as Arthur Seat House, Duthie Park in Aberdeen. He was awarded the King’s Certificate on 17 January 1919, and the King’s Silver War Badge for the disabled (no. 3262) on 31 January 1919

Case referred to the Ministry of Pensions, 30 January 1919

Granted a conditional pension of 27 shillings and six pence per week for 52 weeks in respect of disability caused by gunshot wounds to the head, right chest and left arm, 16 May 1919

Awarded the British War and Victory Medals, issued to him during 1922

Emigrated to South Africa

Dies, suddenly, of heart disease, in the Standard Bank in Commissioner Street in Johannesburg, 14 February 1944.

I have to repeat my earlier question - why would such a junior rating (AM), a rigger, be flying ? And in whose aeropolane ?

Thanks for the suggestion, Mike ... we posted at almost the same time

Cheers

William

[Guest]

That's a good point and an important clue. Thank you.

Andrew Beattie Emslie

Born 26 June 1881

Mobilised and enlisted for the duration of the war in the Royal Naval Air Service as Air Mechanic, 2nd class, number 83051 [or is this his RAF number?], 30 May 1917

Posted to 13 Training School

Transferred to the newly-established Royal Air Force as Air Mechanic, 3rd class, 1 April 1918

Posted to 215 Squadron, RAF, 7 June 1918

Crosses to France on the strength of 215 Squadron, July 1918

215 Squadron proceeded to Alquines Aerodrome, 4 July 1918

The squadron, which was now equipped with ten Handley Page 0/400 four-engined heavy bombers, came under the command of 54 Wing, RAF, and was employed on night bombing operations

Emslie is admitted to 58 Casualty Clearing Station suffering with influenza, 7 July 1918

Discharged to duty, 13 July 1918

215 Squadron moved to Xaffevillers under command of the Independent Air Force, 19 August 1918

Two nights after moving to Xaffevillers, 215 Squadron was ready to continue operations, achieving a very successful raid on Folpersweiler Aerodrome, dropping over 6 tons of bombs from altitudes varying from 400 feet to 3 000 feet and causing enormous damage (History of 215 Squadron in PRO Air 1/184/15/218/1)

Emslie is wounded, 21/22 August 1918

Admitted to No. 8 Canadian Stationary Hospital with gunshot wounds to the head, chest and left arm, 22 August 1918

Struck off patient strength, 8 Canadian Stationary Hospital, and transferred to Base, with severe gunshot wounds to the head, right chest and left arm, 9 September 1918

Admitted to No. 12 General Hospital, with multiple wounds, 11 September 1918

Returned to England aboard HM Hospital Ship Western Australia, 14 September 1918

Admitted to No. 2 Southern General Hospital, Bristol, with severe wounds, 15 September 1918

Struck off strength, 215 Squadron, 15 September 1918

Discharged from the Royal Air Force, unfit, 17 January 1919

Emslie was given a character of 'very good', trade qualification of 'Rigger Aero', and a proficiency rating of 'satisfactory.' He gave his address on discharge as Arthur Seat House, Duthie Park in Aberdeen. He was awarded the King’s Certificate on 17 January 1919, and the King’s Silver War Badge for the disabled (no. 3262) on 31 January 1919

Case referred to the Ministry of Pensions, 30 January 1919

Granted a conditional pension of 27 shillings and six pence per week for 52 weeks in respect of disability caused by gunshot wounds to the head, right chest and left arm, 16 May 1919

Awarded the British War and Victory Medals, issued to him during 1922

Emigrated to South Africa

Dies, suddenly, of heart disease, in the Standard Bank in Commissioner Street in Johannesburg, 14 February 1944.

I have to repeat my earlier question - why would such a junior rating (AM), a rigger, be flying ? And in whose aeropolane ?

Thanks for the suggestion, Mike ... we posted at almost the same time

Cheers

William

Hi,

Emslie is not on my RNAS list, which is virtually complete. His number is definitely not an RNAS one and on the stated enlistment date the RNAS were issuing numbers in the F29800's. I would think that a check of the RAF muster list of 1st April 1918 would be worth a check.

Regards Duncan

[centurion]

A plane could be shot at without being lost and his wounds are consistant with having been shot, but he doesn't appear to have crash injuries. The front air gunner's turret is very exposed on an Handley Page 0/400, being shot there would not affect the integrity of the plane. I would assume that he was a gunner, isn't his trade recorded on his RAF service record?

I am surprised that he was in the RNAS as his service number is an RFC one and I can't find him amongst the online seaman's registers.

The front gunners position was only manned (by the navigator) if and when the HP was attacked. The air gunner was normally in the rear (mid upper) gun position. Crews on ops were normally only 3 (pilot, navigator/bomb aimer, gunner) see "Darkness shall cover me" for good descriptions of operational missions by a former HP pilot.

[Keith Wood]

I last posted this query in 2004 and 2006 but haven't got anywhere with it yet. Perhaps there are new forum members around who can help us ?

83051 AM3 Andrew Beattie Emslie, RAF, 215 Sqdn, Independent Air Force, Xaffevillers, was admitted to No. 8 Canadian Stationary Hospital with gunshot wounds to the head, chest and left arm on 22 August 1918.

He nearly died. He told his daughter many years later that he was shot down, the pilot killed. He hated the Air Force. Never wore his medals.

215 Squadron was a heavy bomber unit armed with Handley Page 0/400 bombers. It didn't lose a plane on the night of 21/22 August 1918.

The RAF museum could find no record of Emslie's wounding.

But he WAS wounded. His personal record confirms it. He was badly hurt, discharged unfit for further service on 17 January 1919 and awarded the King's Silver War Badge for the disabled. And his grateful country gave him a pension of 27 shillings and six pence a week for 52 weeks!!

Soon afterwards he emigrated to South Africa.

So who shot him, and why?

William

Hi William

Im' not too sure of the seating capacitiy in one of these bombers, but could he have been an unofficial passenger on that mission. I had a neighbour, an RCAF clerk in WW2 who did just that.......but only once!

Good luck Keith

[centurion]

Given the weight issues in these bombers a passenger on an operational mission would be very unlikely. WW2 yes many did (and some ended up as POWs) but not WW1.

[centurion]

215's target for the night of 20/21st Sept was the aerodrome at Frescaty. Although there appear to have been no aircraft losses very heavy AA fire of all calibres including "heavy machine gun fire" was encountered. The attack was made at low level - one bomber providing flak suppression fire. The front cockpits would have been manned by the navigator and the rear by the air gunner. All bombers made several low level passes bombing and 'shooting up' so there was ample opportunity for air crew to suffer wounds. This is consistent with your man being in a Canadian Hospital on 22nd Sept. There was no further raid by HPs until after this date.

Hope this helps.

[Archer]

Thanks guys ! This is a lot of new information!

Duncan: Emslie's file at the National Archives is Air 79/754 no. 83051. I have pulled out the photocopies and found that you are right - my summary of facts is wrong! Under section 3 [Current Engagement in H.M. Forces] it states:

a - State whether in Army, Navy, or R.A.F. ... Army

b - Period Man Service [commenced ]30.5.17 [age at that date] 34 5/12 [duration] D of W [i.e. duration of war]

c - Date of actual entry into R.F.C. 30.5.17 R.N.A.S. [-] R.A.F. 1.4.18

Question: What is the sailor's rig he is wearing in the photo given to me by his daughter ?

Centurion: You've certainly showed he could have been shot up in 215's attack on Frescaty on the night of 20/21st Sept - but ...

* No casualty return submitted [?]

* Why was he on flying operations ? And

* What treatment did he receive until admitted to No. 8 Canadian Stationary Hospital the next day suffering from gunshot wounds to the head, chest and left arm ?

Something still looks odd about this story!

Thanks again for your comments

William

[Archer]

Second thoughts, Duncan ...

Emslie’s service record indicates that he joined the Royal Flying Corps, but his rank (Air Mechanic, 2nd class), taken together with the evidence of the photograph of him in uniform strongly suggests that he served with the RNAS until the formation of the RAF in April 1918... ?

[centurion]

Archer

I misread your original posting. If we are talking about August and not Sept, on 21/22 Aug aircraft from 215 attacked Folsperwiller airfield - again such an attack would be relatively low level (500 ft) using mg s to shhot up the field and attract return Mg fire. They also attacked the railway junction at Herzing but this would be a higher level attack probably out of mg range (and it would be where they dropped the bulk of the bomb load).

Wth regard to why your man could be flying ops. Air mechanics often doubled up as air gunners when needed.

Whether we are talking about Sept or Aug he would probably be first treated at or near his airfield first and then transfered to the hospital. The doctors at the airfield would dress his wounds and staunch any immediatly life threatening bleeding (ie stabilise him). They would also make the cold calculation "is it possible to save him" before transfering him to a proper hospital if they thought he might have a chance. They might have had to take a decision like - if he's still breathing after x hours then its worth taking the risk of transfering him and perhaps he won't die on the way.

Lack of a casualty report is a mystery but paperwork did get misfiled and lost - still does.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Fitters went on operational missions, sometimes: to see if they could make the step to air gunners; because the plane was experiencing problems in the air; no air gunners were available etc. I have seen details of a rigger who won a DFM acting as a gunner. THIS WAS NOT WW2! Roles were more fluid.

being shot there would not affect the integrity of the plane. Oh dear, I've set off the pedants alert again. I was merely indicating an obvious position that he could have been in where he could have been shot that would probably not result in the crash of the whole aircraft. As I understood the question it was how could he be shot without an aircraft being lost? He could also have been shot up on the airfield, or in a recovery lorry.

[centurion]

Without being pedantic there are lots of places where he could be hit by rifle calibre fire and not affect the integrety of the airframe - the rear gunners position for one - he would have had fabric on either side of him and his top half would be completely exposed in any case. Provided the bullets missed the upper longeron, there was nothing vital between him and the bullets.

I'd already made the point that air mechanics sometimes flew as gunners (one of our last surviving WW1 veterans did just that and this was the route to airmen that at least two British aces took) however I'd take issue that they would fly on ops because the plane was experiencing problems. True fitters, mechanics rigders etc often went on flights to check things (or sometimes just to act as ballast) but I would think it unlikely that aplane that was having problems would actually be flying on an operational mission.

[Archer]

Thank you Centurion, the General and all who have added comments!

Most interesting and instructive.

Emslie seems somewhat to have embellished the truth (or he has been misquoted) when he said that he was shot down and the pilot killed.

I hate missing files - we all do - and was hoping against hope that 'someone' out there already knew of, or had a reference to, this episode.

Thanks again. I'm going to turn in now. (22:38 local time.)

William